Electric everything.

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Oldjohnw
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Oldjohnw »

The cheapest Tesla is approaching £40k. The cheapest VW Golf is about £10k.

For Mr Ordinary, the Golf is within reach where the Tesla is not, regardless of life time costs.

It is a hurdle that somehow needs to be addressed or cars will only be for the wealthy few.
John
Jdsk
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Jdsk »

Oldjohnw wrote: 1 Aug 2021, 10:40am The cheapest Tesla is approaching £40k. The cheapest VW Golf is about £10k.
That's a strange comparison. They're very different types of car. You can't get a new Golf for £10k.

Oldjohnw wrote: 1 Aug 2021, 10:40am For Mr Ordinary, the Golf is within reach where the Tesla is not, regardless of life time costs.

It is a hurdle that somehow needs to be addressed or cars will only be for the wealthy few.
Costs are much closer on total cost of ownership.

And of course there are many more cheap preowned ICE cars around and there will be for some time. But this is a long game.

Jonathan
Jules59
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Jules59 »

Here's food for thought.

Jaguar expect the LIB in their I-pace to last the lifetime of the vehicle (good for 500,000km).

But what if the battery is damaged ...
In this anecdotal report about the battery enclosure being damaged (probably during wheel changing) the cost of repair was about £28k. If the cells had been damaged it would have been much more.
https://insideevs.com/news/491369/damag ... pair-cost/

The way we purchase cars in the future will need to take these things into account and as minor damage to a mass market BEV might turn out to be an uneconomical repair, even if the vehicle is not very old, as its so technically difficult to undertake.
Jdsk
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Jdsk »

Jules59 wrote: 1 Aug 2021, 10:58amThe way we purchase cars in the future will need to take these things into account...
Yes.

That can be done through insurance. Or through not owning the car, which is already happening.

Jonathan

PS: And the lower service cost of BEVs needs to be included in the calculation.
Jdsk
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Jdsk »

Jdsk wrote: 1 Aug 2021, 11:03am
Jules59 wrote: 1 Aug 2021, 10:58amThe way we purchase cars in the future will need to take these things into account...
That can be done through insurance. Or through not owning the car, which is already happening.
Or even by owning the car but not carrying the risk of battery failure:
https://easyelectriclife.groupe.renault ... s-it-work/

Have the outcomes of that scheme ever been published?

Jonathan
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Oldjohnw wrote: 1 Aug 2021, 10:40am The cheapest Tesla is approaching £40k. The cheapest VW Golf is about £10k.

For Mr Ordinary, the Golf is within reach where the Tesla is not, regardless of life time costs.

It is a hurdle that somehow needs to be addressed or cars will only be for the wealthy few.
What a ridiculous comparison... particularly given that the model 2 is targeting sub £20k, and that you cannot get a new Golf for £10k (see later)

The cheapest BMW 7 series is £70k, an e-up is £7k - so petrol cars are ten times the price of electric ones.

Yes - you can get a brand new electric car for £7k, not a large one, but one that does perfectly well (it is smaller than a Golf, but if I recall correctly is also higher specced internally than the base Golf).

ID3 is ~£27k (golf sized, but includes comfort pack and upgraded infotainment system)
The Golf comes in three "normal" trim levels, from £23.5k, £24k and £25.7k, then sporty versions all the way to "from" £40.1k.

So the electric version of the Golf costs about the same as a Golf, it is fractionally more capital, but saving >10p/mile purely on fuel costs, it would only take about four years (assuming an average 8k/year) to recover that additional cost (over the cheapest possible Golf with no optional extras).
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Oldjohnw
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Oldjohnw »

Jdsk wrote: 1 Aug 2021, 10:47am
Oldjohnw wrote: 1 Aug 2021, 10:40am The cheapest Tesla is approaching £40k. The cheapest VW Golf is about £10k.
That's a strange comparison. They're very different types of car. You can't get a new Golf for £10k.

Oldjohnw wrote: 1 Aug 2021, 10:40am For Mr Ordinary, the Golf is within reach where the Tesla is not, regardless of life time costs.

It is a hurdle that somehow needs to be addressed or cars will only be for the wealthy few.
Costs are much closer on total cost of ownership.



And of course there are many more cheap preowned ICE cars around and there will be for some time. But this is a long game.

Jonathan
These two cars were the ones quoted above and how the one was now outselling the other.it is a ridiculous comparison but it wasn’t my comparison.

Yes I do know about total costs. But the ordinary Joe Public cannot find £40k this Saturday when he goes to replace his car. The bank won’t think of lending him it. But he could rub together £10k.

No, you can’t get a new golf but you can get a decent golf. You can get a new one for a little over £20k.

PS I see the post that originally made the comparisons is on another thread. My apologies.
Last edited by Oldjohnw on 1 Aug 2021, 11:53am, edited 3 times in total.
John
Jdsk
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Jdsk »

Oldjohnw wrote: 1 Aug 2021, 11:42amBut the ordinary Joe Public cannot find £40k this Saturday when he goes to replace his car. The bank won’t think of lending him it. But he could rub together £10k.
In the UK less than 10% of new cars are bought for cash:
https://uk.motor1.com/news/353737/91-pe ... nced-year/

Jonathan
thirdcrank
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by thirdcrank »

Perhaps a lot of people are living beyond their means
Oldjohnw
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Oldjohnw »

thirdcrank wrote: 1 Aug 2021, 12:04pm Perhaps a lot of people are living beyond their means
I believe government statistics bear that out. As a nation personal debt is unsustainable but expanding, despite a recent savings surge.
John
thirdcrank
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by thirdcrank »

Data about the sales of new cars must be clouded a bit by the numbers "sold" to meet manufacturers' registration targets. I believe that even after the various disincentives, the company car still accounts for a lot of new registrations. I presume it makes sense for a company to lease its vehicles but the private car market seems to be built on deception: if you can't afford £100 deposit we'll accept your banger instead then you decide what you can pay each week and get the "car you deserve." The last new car I bought - a basic Skoda Fabia in 2017 - was an eye opener. In terms I can understand it was £15(?) grand cash and they threw in some unsolicited extras to hide the fact it had been in the showroom. For another grand paid over three years, it would still belong to them. Also, in spite of my out-of-hand rejection of that "deal" they still tried to peddle the insurance extras like GAP cover, scratches, tyres and alloy wheels. All on top of the PCP.
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mjr
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by mjr »

Hellhound wrote: 1 Aug 2021, 10:31am
mjr wrote: 1 Aug 2021, 12:50am I just suggested that few people love cars for pleasure and noted the need for "motoring" shows to switch from cars to celebs to find a big audience.
Define 'few'.
I'm a member of car and motorbike Forums which have 1000s of members!
Few is less than 3% of motorists, say. 1000s on worldwide web forums does not equate to millions in the UK, contrary to the earlier claim.
Motoring shows have little to do with car enthusiasts :roll:
Yes, motoring shows have little to do with car enthusiasts, because "car enthusiasts" is now too small an audience for a viable mainstream TV show. That was the point I made. It is dying out, thankfully.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Mick F
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Mick F »

Jdsk wrote: 1 Aug 2021, 8:17am
Mick F wrote: 31 Jul 2021, 5:14pmSome of the journey was along a flat road and as we drive a hybrid, we don't consume petrol as it runs on EV power.
That's a Yaris XP130? When you were running on battery power had it been charged from petrol or from mains electricity, please?
Mainly gravity.
We can do perhaps three miles driven very gently on a flat road.

As soon as you hit a downhill, the system switches over from electric motor to generator to stick lecky back the other way.
Brake, and the same thing happens.
Much of the braking doesn't use pads/shoes, but regeneration is retardation. Brakes only actually uses for hard braking or actually stopping. Consequently the brakes aren't used as much as a 'normal" car, and sometimes the discs rust from non-use.

Climbing a hill gently?, we can be on EV with some gentle assistance with the ICE, but after a while, the ICE kicks in more as the EV battery is capacity consumed.

No mains plug-in, and even if we had it, the EV battery would be almost empty by the time we got out of the valley. 2miles perhaps.

Never get home without a full battery. Regen sorts it out, but it's all gone getting back out.
You never get something for nothing.

What about cycling?
This is a cycling forum eh? :D

Discounting wind, which route is quicker?
One where it's flat for 50miles, or one where it's 50miles of up and down hills?

Say a mile of 25% up and a mile of 25% down.
What about two miles on the flat?
Mick F. Cornwall
Jdsk
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Jdsk »

Mick F wrote: 1 Aug 2021, 2:18pm
Jdsk wrote: 1 Aug 2021, 8:17am
Mick F wrote: 31 Jul 2021, 5:14pmSome of the journey was along a flat road and as we drive a hybrid, we don't consume petrol as it runs on EV power.
That's a Yaris XP130? When you were running on battery power had it been charged from petrol or from mains electricity, please?
No mains plug-in, and even if we had it, the EV battery would be almost empty by the time we got out of the valley. 2miles perhaps.
Thanks

Jonathan
philvantwo
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by philvantwo »

What gets me with these motorbikes is why do they start them up and let them idle for 20mins, get on, rev them up and then ride off!
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