Electric everything.

[rjb]

38 chargers at a car park was mentioned in a previous thread. If these were 70kw fast chargers this means a power supply in excess of 2.5 MW's is required. This is getting serious numbers. The infrastructure in terms of supply cables is not up to that standard yet.

Details of the Oxford project:
https://theoxfordmagazine.com/news/powe ... to-oxford/

38 "fast and ultrapid"
10MW on-site
... directly connected to the high voltage national electricity grid

Jonathan

How many such charging stations will we need? A thousand for starters will add 10GW to the system output which operates at approx 40 GW when everything is running at max output. Government soon may well have to choose between keeping the lights on or keeping the transport system running. it's beginning to look like the agreed strike price for the electric generated at Hinkley C, £92.5 per MW hour is a bargain.

[Jdsk]

We were trying to work out how this will play out at a Park and Ride, especially around duration of parking and required duration of charging. And wondered if anyone had a model for reconnecting the charger to a different vehicle while the driver is in the city...

One idea OTTOMH
An electric car charger attendant,who could unplug and plug in three to six cars parked three on each side of one charging pojnt swapping the lead over as and when needed perhaps?
One attendant could be in charge(sorry)of 10 or more charging points.
If say each car takes 60minutes to charge up it'd take 6hours to charge six cars ×10=60 cars charged fully in 6 hours.
Obviously there'd need to be a price for the service.

Yes. We came up with human intervention without moving the cars.

But... Teslas can move themselves around a car park. And there have been prototypes of automated connection...

[[XAP]Bob]

38 chargers at a car park was mentioned in a previous thread. If these were 70kw fast chargers this means a power supply in excess of 2.5 MW's is required. This is getting serious numbers. The infrastructure in terms of supply cables is not up to that standard yet.

Details of the Oxford project:
https://theoxfordmagazine.com/news/powe ... to-oxford/

38 "fast and ultrapid"
10MW on-site
... directly connected to the high voltage national electricity grid

Jonathan

How many such charging stations will we need? A thousand for starters will add 10GW to the system output which operates at approx 40 GW when everything is running at max output. Government soon may well have to choose between keeping the lights on or keeping the transport system running. it's beginning to look like the agreed strike price for the electric generated at Hinkley C, £92.5 per MW hour is a bargain.

Yep - because all cars will always charge at the same time at max rates.
On average each car will take ~4-5kWh/day, 32 million cars that's an average load of 5.3-6.6 GW.
i.e. a 10-15% boost to the grid needed at peak loads, but we'll be using economic incentives to encourage people to charge at times which aren't peak. Flatten the duck.



I did suggest at the start of this car park discussion that they should be slower chargers.
A handful of rapid chargers, for the very few who need a quick boost, and a plethora of slow chargers for those who will be there all day would, IMHO, be a better use of the grid connection.

[pete75]

The year before last I installed an 18kw heat pump to heat our swimming pool, previously heated by an oil boiler. It does a good job of keeping 12,000 gallons of water at 30C. Total installation cost was £2,000. £1800 for the heat pump and £200 for pipes and electrical sundries. I installed it in less than a day. Can't see a domestic installation taking that much longer. So what if the existing radiators are too small - new rads aren't expensive and don't take long to fit.

[pete75]

I walked through some roadworks yesterday which turned out to be:

"Works to power UK’s largest public EV charging superhub set to begin":
https://theoxfordmagazine.com/news/work ... -to-begin/

38 chargers at a Park and Ride. And a new supply to a bus depot.

Jonathan

Not far from where I live they're building the British end of the Viking link - a 1400MW link to import electricity from Denmark. That should be able to charge an electric car or two especially if we don't do it at the same time as the Danes, many of whom get around by bicycle anyway.

[rjb]

Not far from where I live they're building the British end of the Viking link - a 1400MW link to import electricity from Denmark. That should be able to charge an electric car or two especially if we don't do it at the same time as the Danes, many of whom get around by bicycle anyway.

These links work both ways so when the wind drops we could be exporting our power to support the Danes charging their vehicles, depleting our resources further.

[pete75]

Not far from where I live they're building the British end of the Viking link - a 1400MW link to import electricity from Denmark. That should be able to charge an electric car or two especially if we don't do it at the same time as the Danes, many of whom get around by bicycle anyway.

These links work both ways so when the wind drops we could be exporting our power to support the Danes charging their vehicles, depleting our resources further.

So it's fine for Britain to import electricity from other countries but not the other way round?

[reohn2]

To state the obvious the problem is charge time,filling up with liquid takes 5 to 10mins max unless there's a queue for the pumps.
Filling up with electric takes much longer even with fast chargers so the car needs to be left unattended,supermarkets have it sewn up plug in,shop,unplug.
Park and ride less so due to the time the car is left unattended,so needs attending to in some way or other,.
TBH I can't see that situation being remedied by automation with all the different positions of charge points on all the diffent cars.Are all E plugs the same now?
I'm waaayyyy behind on how advanced automation is these days,hence my suggestion of an attendant altough a personal touch in an increasingly automated and insular world isn't such a bad thing,as well an keeping an eye on a carpark and keeping them in work.

[[XAP]Bob]

To state the obvious the problem is charge time,filling up with liquid takes 5 to 10mins max unless there's a queue for the pumps.
Filling up with electric takes much longer even with fast chargers so the car needs to be left unattended,supermarkets have it sewn up plug in,shop,unplug.
Park and ride less so due to the time the car is left unattended,so needs attending to in some way or other,.
TBH I can't see that situation being remedied by automation with all the different positions of charge points on all the diffent cars.Are all E plugs the same now?
I'm waaayyyy behind on how advanced automation is these days,hence my suggestion of an attendant altough a personal touch in an increasingly automated and insular world isn't such a bad thing,as well an keeping an eye on a carpark and keeping them in work.

You can't have people without the car keys unplugging your car - the connector (at least for CCS) is locked in place by the car, not the charger.
The solution to this "problem" is to use slower chargers where you expect to be parked for longer, they're also much cheaper to install.

Charge time isn't that serious a problem, very few cars are perpetually on the road - you park when you sleep, when you work, when you visit the local town... you just need to be able to find one of those where you can charge - and for the vast majority that will be at home whilst they sleep.

Long journeys are the obvious exception, where you need to fill up and go, hence having DC chargers at services, and even supermarkets just off the motorway (much cheaper and better choice of food).

[jb]

The company I work for is spending millions on hydrogen fuel cell technology. Hydrogen will be slow to get going with having almost zero infrastructure but once it starts I predict a mixture of battery and hydrogen probably using the same base chassis & motors.
All this talk of charging problems will be found to be unwarented.

[reohn2]

To state the obvious the problem is charge time,filling up with liquid takes 5 to 10mins max unless there's a queue for the pumps.
Filling up with electric takes much longer even with fast chargers so the car needs to be left unattended,supermarkets have it sewn up plug in,shop,unplug.
Park and ride less so due to the time the car is left unattended,so needs attending to in some way or other,.
TBH I can't see that situation being remedied by automation with all the different positions of charge points on all the diffent cars.Are all E plugs the same now?
I'm waaayyyy behind on how advanced automation is these days,hence my suggestion of an attendant altough a personal touch in an increasingly automated and insular world isn't such a bad thing,as well an keeping an eye on a carpark and keeping them in work.

You can't have people without the car keys unplugging your car - the connector (at least for CCS) is locked in place by the car, not the charger.
The solution to this "problem" is to use slower chargers where you expect to be parked for longer, they're also much cheaper to install.

Charge time isn't that serious a problem, very few cars are perpetually on the road - you park when you sleep, when you work, when you visit the local town... you just need to be able to find one of those where you can charge - and for the vast majority that will be at home whilst they sleep.

Long journeys are the obvious exception, where you need to fill up and go, hence having DC chargers at services, and even supermarkets just off the motorway (much cheaper and better choice of food).

You're right of course for the vast majority of E-car users,I was answering Jdsk's specific question of charging at Park and Ride car parks.

[Jdsk]

The company I work for is spending millions on hydrogen fuel cell technology. Hydrogen will be slow to get going with having almost zero infrastructure but once it starts I predict a mixture of battery and hydrogen probably using the same base chassis & motors.
All this talk of charging problems will be found to be unwarented.

I don't see that hydrogen infrastructure ever getting there for "cars". There are too many barriers that all have to be solved. And the full-cycle efficiency looks too low.

Trucks and ships and 'planes are a different matter.

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

Details of the Oxford project:
https://theoxfordmagazine.com/news/powe ... to-oxford/

38 "fast and ultrapid"
10MW on-site
... directly connected to the high voltage national electricity grid

How many such charging stations will we need? A thousand for starters will add 10GW to the system output which operates at approx 40 GW when everything is running at max output. Government soon may well have to choose between keeping the lights on or keeping the transport system running. it's beginning to look like the agreed strike price for the electric generated at Hinkley C, £92.5 per MW hour is a bargain.

Yep - because all cars will always charge at the same time at max rates.
On average each car will take ~4-5kWh/day, 32 million cars that's an average load of 5.3-6.6 GW.
i.e. a 10-15% boost to the grid needed at peak loads, but we'll be using economic incentives to encourage people to charge at times which aren't peak. Flatten the duck.

Yes. That's the bottom-up calculation. And if you look at the total projections to 2040 they don't show much overall increase.
viewtopic.php?p=1627048#p1627048

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

Not far from where I live they're building the British end of the Viking link - a 1400MW link to import electricity from Denmark. That should be able to charge an electric car or two especially if we don't do it at the same time as the Danes, many of whom get around by bicycle anyway.

These links work both ways so when the wind drops we could be exporting our power to support the Danes charging their vehicles, depleting our resources further.

Both sides win with interconnects.

And as well as the timeshifting of demand which they've always offered they can average out intermittent renewable sources.

I don't see that as depleting anything, and it might be more efficient than storage.

Jonathan

[francovendee]

I think that before more people buy electric cars there should be a firm plan of what system is allowed to take power to a car parked in the street.
I've just come back from a break and saw two cars being charged in the street with cables passing over the garden wall and across the pavement to the cars. The cables were quite thick and looked stiff. You had to make a conscious effort to step over them. It would be dangerous, especially for visually handicapped or the old and infirm, to have these snaking across the pavement from every house without off street parking.
Maybe there should be a requirement that all cables should be run in a channel that is set into the pavement. Anyone just slinging a cable across the pavement to charge a car should be breaking a law.