Electric everything.

[sjs]

I do not believe the mileage claims, just like I don't believe the fuel consumption figures for ICE cars. Chuck in all the hills on a journey, and fuel consumption rockets.

Driven sensibly, our Tesla would do 300 miles from 100% to 0% charge (manufacturers claim is 340 or something, and, some days, and driven slowly, maybe it could do that). But you wouldn't want to arrive anywhere with no charge left.

[Mick F]

We drive a Toyota Hybrid Yaris.
Driven at 50odd or even 60mph on the motorway, we can get 65+mpg.

Locally, even (say) to Exeter and back on the minor roads and the A30, we drop to 40odd mpg.

Hills.
That's all it is.
Hills.

[Stevek76]

Rapid charging far more likely to solve the range issue than actual range capacity. 300miles isn't an issue if you can fill up on 5 or even 10 mins.

Regarding tax etc. Road user charging is an option, has major benefits of being able to be very equitable as well, penalising use in congested urban areas where externalised costs (i.e. the effective subsidy driving gets from the public purse) can be well over £1 per km without overcharging rural use.

[biketips666]

Some here are making a great many "predictions" about the viability, or usually non-viability, of various technologies.

It would be good to remember the extremely poor ability of humans to predict future technological changes. I personally remember Professor (yes, "professor") Phillip Stott declaring with the confidence of somebody who is about to be proved wrong, that wind power - "could only generate, at most, 2 or 3 % of our electricity".

It's now 21% of use:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_powe ... ed_Kingdom

It will be more in a couple of years, when round 3 of the CfD auctions comes on stream. And yet more when round 4 has run and comes on stream.

Even more astonishing is the ability, especially of experts in their fields, to be wrong in their predictions, and to display the paucity of their imagination. Maybe the lack of imagination of experts (real or imagined) is exactly what enables the non-experts to sometimes achieve.

"Not Within A Thousand Years Will Man Ever Fly." (Wilbur Wright 1901)

"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home" (Ken Olson, founder of Digital Equipment Corporation)

"But, what is it good for?" (engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968, commenting on the microchip)

"This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us" (Western Union internal memo, 1876).

"The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value" (David Sarnoff's associates in response to his urging for investment in radio, 1920s).

"Guitar groups are on their way out".

I predict (!) that large scale electrification of many things, especially transport, will happen. It's worth remembering that the first Mercedes-Benz was an electric car (I think?).

The strength of electricity is that it can be generated in such a wide variety of ways, and used to power so many different things. Once some form of energy, oil, coal, wind, the tides, sun, the weak (or is it the strong?) nuclear force, is turned into electricity, it's all the same.

Electrical power's weakness is storage, but that doesn't strike me as insurmountable. Batteries, pumped storage, concrete blocks on rail tracks, and so on, are all being developed. And if we really need a transportable, dense, energy source, electricity can be used to make hydrogen, out of water.

[biketips666]

But why would it be better to stay with fossil fuels and ICEs for "cars", please?
Thanks
Jonathan

Because there are 1000s,possibly millions of people who like ICEs?!
I'm one of them.I like the sound,the feel etc.
I've driven EVs and an electric superbike.They are horrible souless things.Brilliant acceleration,I concede that,but absolutely no pleasure or feel to it!It's just boring.No gearbox,clutch or sound of an engine at 10,000rpm.It's pointless.Some people ride/drive for pleasure first and as a necessity second.
ICEs give pleasure to millions.You either get it or don't.Not everyone wants to drive a tiny little rollerskate with a bland exterior and even blander interior.

I think you are vastly over-estimating the world's affection for the internal combustion engine. I suggest that you are transferring your own affection for ICEs onto other people, and I suggest that is a mistake.

For instance, automatic gearboxes are now far more common than they were once in this country. For every "old-timer" who claims to enjoy the "soul" or "feel" of a manual gearbox, there is another, like me, who prefers not having to fanny about with that stupid stick. And I've driven pretty much every size and type of vehicle you can, on a normal license. Even more so my wife, who no longer has to fear the hill start.

And the same thing will happen with electric cars. These people who "drive for pleasure" that you quote are very small in number. Otherwise the roads would be jam-packed on a Sunday afternoon. The time when they are jam-packed is in the morning and the evening, when people are driving out of necessity, to get to work.

[sjs]

Rapid charging far more likely to solve the range issue than actual range capacity. 300miles isn't an issue if you can fill up on 5 or even 10 mins.

I don't entirely agree, especially if each 5 or 10 minute charge requires a 10 mile detour because of a scarcity of chargers. Or a half hour wait for one to become available.

[Mick F]

Went out this afternoon to pick up Mrs Mick F from the next village having dropped her off earlier.

3.5miles there and back and never got much above 25mph.
The car was warm as we were out in it only an hour earlier, and because of this thread, I reset the trip info before I went to collect her.

Some of the journey was along a flat road and as we drive a hybrid, we don't consume petrol as it runs on EV power.
Some of the journey - in fact two parts of it - were steeply downhill - which consumes zero petrol too and charges the battery on over-run.

3.5miles with a warm car that has been used, and managed a massive 32.2mpg.
Steady speed at 60mph will return 60mpg.

[biketips666]

Even more astonishing is the ability, especially of experts in their fields, to be wrong in their predictions, and to display the paucity of their imagination. Maybe the lack of imagination of experts (real or imagined) is exactly what enables the non-experts to sometimes achieve.

"Not Within A Thousand Years Will Man Ever Fly." (Wilbur Wright 1901)

Though just to quote myself, it's worth noting that Wilbur wasn't an expert on aeronautical engineering, nobody was, back then.

In fact he didn't have an engineering degree or any fancy qualifications.

But he did run a bicycle shop.

[philvantwo]

The only answer is to cover the whole country with an electrified mesh, have a big pole on the back of every vehicle with a metal conductor at the top and all cars will work like bumper cars! I wonder if you stopped at the traffic lights some bloke will jump on the back, lean forward and help with the steering??

[simonineaston]

All this bickering is pointless. The Only Metric that Matters is the continuing rise in 'greenhouse' gases. Get that wrong and it'll be curtains. For us and all other higher animals. And sooner than we think. Go read the reports.
(Our predilection for optimism weights our attitude towards the assumption that we can technofiddle our way out of this. By the time we've invented something that will help, it will be too late. We should focus instead on the Only Metric that Matters - see above.)

[mjr]

ICEs give pleasure to millions.You either get it or don't.Not everyone wants to drive a tiny little rollerskate with a bland exterior and even blander interior.

I think that's overestimating wildly and cars are a tool for most, with combustion engines an encumbrance for many.
If cars excited many people in and of themselves, Top Gear would have found a big audience before adding lots of challenges and celebrity features. Top Gear and even the subscription Grand Tour still get more viewers than the more car-centred Fifth Gear.
I suspect Top Gear could quietly and slowly go electric or possibly even change mode of transport entirely without losing many viewers, if done cleverly.

The love of cars for pleasure has been around a lot longer than Top Gear I think you're overestimating wildly what influence Top Gear has on the car buying public!

I never claimed it had any influence!

I just suggested that few people love cars for pleasure and noted the need for "motoring" shows to switch from cars to celebs to find a big audience.

[Jdsk]

Some of the journey was along a flat road and as we drive a hybrid, we don't consume petrol as it runs on EV power.

That's a Yaris XP130? When you were running on battery power had it been charged from petrol or from mains electricity, please?

Thanks

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

Rapid charging far more likely to solve the range issue than actual range capacity. 300miles isn't an issue if you can fill up on 5 or even 10 mins.

I don't entirely agree, especially if each 5 or 10 minute charge requires a 10 mile detour because of a scarcity of chargers. Or a half hour wait for one to become available.

Thankyou both for raising a serious point.

I'm expecting steady increases in range with newer models, filling up more frequently on long journeys but otherwise only at home, and an increase in charging points, which are of course much easier to install than for petrol (or hydrogen).

The current hassle of this is best informed by current (!) owners of BEVs... any more out there to add real-world experiences, please?

And is provision of charging points an area where central government should intervene, and spend?

Jonathan

[Jules59]

Despite LIBs (Lithium Ion Battery) being in use for decades in portable devices, the recycling of LIB from BEVs is facing major challenges; technical, environmental and, not least, financial...

http://jupiter.chem.uoa.gr/thanost/pape ... 019)75.pdf
"At present there is little hope that profitable processes will be found for all types of current and future types of electric-vehicle LIBs without substantial successful research and development, so the imperative to recycle will derive primarily from the desire to avoid landfill and
to secure the supply of strategic elements."

"There are a number of lessons that the future LIB recycling industry could learn from the highly successful lead–acid battery recycling industry. As a technology, lead–acid batteries are relatively standardized and simple to disassemble and recycle, which minimizes costs, allowing the value of lead to drive recycling. Unfortunately, for a rapidly developing technology such as electric-vehicle LIBs, such advantages are not likely to apply any time soon."

Probably the greatest public concern regarding nuclear power is/was what to do with nuclear waste (although in reality its not a huge problem as highly radioactive substances have short half lives). BEVs are in danger of going down the same path as the LIBs contain long lived, highly toxic substances.

The UK cant even cope with the recycling/disposal of simple plastic waste; having to export it to other countries where it is often just dumped.

Nobody is going to undertaker BEV LIB recycling unless they can make a profit- its how the world works. I dont think the cost of BEV ownership takes LIB recycling into account, yet.
Maybe a BEV LIB recycling tax will need to be introduced.

[Hellhound]

I just suggested that few people love cars for pleasure and noted the need for "motoring" shows to switch from cars to celebs to find a big audience.

Define 'few'.
I'm a member of car and motorbike Forums which have 1000s of members!True 'petrolhead' forums are possibly the busiest forums on the 'net.Car 'customising' is a multi-million £ business.It's not just kids either.I'm mid-50s and drive my car or ride my motorbike just for the fun of it.The old boy across from me is just waiting for his mates to turn up before they go for a razz in their little MX-5 convertibles.He bought his as a 70th birthday present to himself.I intend to purchase a Ford Mustang convertible for my 60th,big,loud and thirsty
Motoring shows have little to do with car enthusiasts
I've just been out for a quick 30 miles on my push-iron.I think I'll nip to the coast for a coffee on the Motorbike later....just because it's fun
I probably know more people who ride and drive for fun than the opposite.That includes push-bikes too!

These people who "drive for pleasure" that you quote are very small in number. Otherwise the roads would be jam-packed on a Sunday afternoon. The time when they are jam-packed is in the morning and the evening, when people are driving out of necessity, to get to work.

I take it you don't venture out into the countryside much at weekends?
Lakes,Dales,Peaks,Moors all rammed,especially with motorbikes on a Sunday.There are known 'meets' all over the UK that myself,and 1000s like me,ride to most Sundays.Do you think we do it just for a nice cup of coffee!?
Matlock Bath is like Blackpool prom on a Sunday,ditto Devils Bridge,Kirkby Lonsdale
Do you seriously think all the Porsche,Ferrari,Aston,Lambo etc owners use them for necessity