HS2 and "Leveling-Up"

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al_yrpal
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Re: HS2 and "Leveling-Up"

Post by al_yrpal »

Oldjohnw wrote: 31 Jul 2021, 11:17am
merseymouth wrote: 31 Jul 2021, 10:57am Hi Oldjohnw, My point is that whatever the topic you automatically go straight to "Bash The Government" mode!
But with regards to many of the costly fiascos it is the "Professional" (?) Civil Servants that cause the mess, so using the blanket hit against the elected sector is very wrong!
The railway industry is constantly beset with admin cock-ups, always very costly, caused by those unelected servants of the British population.
The London bias is a constant source of pain to those of us who prefer to live outside of that toxic bubble. MM
I know all about London bias. I live as far north in England as it is possible. Most in Westminster - and Whitehall - think we are in Scotland.

Policy decisions, such as HS2, are made at Cabinet level.
Theres an excellent 'documentry' about how government, the establishment and HM Civil Service works being repeated by the BBC right now. Its called Yes Minister. I suggest you watch and learn! :lol:

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
merseymouth
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Re: HS2 and "Leveling-Up"

Post by merseymouth »

Hi Al :D , Spot on mate! :D I have all of the YM & YPM on DVD, so I'm well up on the fictional version of reality.
Ministers really do get stitched up by "Professionals", in much the same way that the ruddy awful cycling schemes get pushed through by those qualified in such matters? The fact that they are stupid, dangerous and pathetic doesn't queer their pitch, the smuggles rule! MM
Oldjohnw
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Re: HS2 and "Leveling-Up"

Post by Oldjohnw »

al_yrpal wrote: 31 Jul 2021, 11:30am
Oldjohnw wrote: 31 Jul 2021, 11:17am
merseymouth wrote: 31 Jul 2021, 10:57am Hi Oldjohnw, My point is that whatever the topic you automatically go straight to "Bash The Government" mode!
But with regards to many of the costly fiascos it is the "Professional" (?) Civil Servants that cause the mess, so using the blanket hit against the elected sector is very wrong!
The railway industry is constantly beset with admin cock-ups, always very costly, caused by those unelected servants of the British population.
The London bias is a constant source of pain to those of us who prefer to live outside of that toxic bubble. MM
I know all about London bias. I live as far north in England as it is possible. Most in Westminster - and Whitehall - think we are in Scotland.

Policy decisions, such as HS2, are made at Cabinet level.
Theres an excellent 'documentry' about how government, the establishment and HM Civil Service works being repeated by the BBC right now. Its called Yes Minister. I suggest you watch and learn! :lol:

Al
I know roughly how the CS works (I even k ow how the pension system works) and I know and enjoy Yes Minister, which isn’t a documentary although often close to the truth. As MM says, civil servants are not elected. The way the government and CS works is that the elected politicians take responsibility. You may well want a different system which is fair enough. But, at present, this is how it works.

And yes, currently, I blame the Conservative government for its decisions. I really am not sure who else to blame. Unless, of course, the EU!

You will note I pointed the finger of blame to Jack straw for the previous attempt at public shaming.
John
Psamathe
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Re: HS2 and "Leveling-Up"

Post by Psamathe »

mjr wrote: 30 Jul 2021, 2:04pm ... The cycleway was dropped despite offering a benefit-cost ratio of £5.50 for every £1 spent.....
I find that aspect really disgraceful. Ministers always keen to use the return of investment as a critical factor when pursuing their vanity projects but ignore it when they personally don't find something as newsworthy. Johnson very happy for the PR with photo-ops on his bike but when it comes to doing something for sustainable travel, for health, etc. he's gone into hiding (again).

On a more general note the UK seems very keen to pay lip-service to "sustainability" and addressing climate change but the moment it comes to doing more than a bit of positive spin then it's going nowhere. I recently watched a local Planning Committee meeting where one application they were deciding was "unsustainable" but had no-cost sustainable, easy, readily available alternatives yet the Council's Joint Core Strategy was completely ignored, not considered (just the Committee Chairman's declared vested interests). So much for climate change solutions from the UK - it really highlighted to me how the UK is "the problem" not part of any solution.

Ian
Stevek76
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Re: HS2 and "Leveling-Up"

Post by Stevek76 »

Brexit, championed by a Eton-oxford alumnus & bullingdon club member wasn't a product of the establishment? Hilarious. Get the blinkers off.
Psamathe wrote: 31 Jul 2021, 1:36pm Johnson very happy for the PR with photo-ops on his bike but when it comes to doing something for sustainable travel, for health, etc. he's gone into hiding (again).
Electric trains are sustainable transport. Besides, there was this

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... ike-paths/

as I'd said, much of the 'cycle path' in the sense of a full route never existed beyond a feasibility study that just got ignored. It's something that should have been built in far more from the start but late Labour and the following coalition were not exactly active travel enthusiasts. Realistically the present government is the most favourable we've seen for cycling for a very long time. No where near enough mind and still far too keen to build roads everywhere and think electric cars will solve climate change for them. Still, as much as I dislike Johnson, I'm not looking forward to whichever conservative replaces him when he is inevitably deposed before the next election. :?
Carlton green wrote: 30 Jul 2021, 10:18pm To my mind there is no question at all that the money could be better spent on both other Rail projects and more generally on infrastructure.
And the expert evidence/experience you've used to arrive at that conclusion is? Capital spend, incidentally, is not limited. In the same sense, stopping hs2 would not instantly free up however many billions the current TPA made up figure is to spend elsewhere.
Carlton green wrote: 30 Jul 2021, 10:18pm What the purpose of HS2 really is is anyone’s guess and certainly no leg beyond Birmingham should be built:
It's to massively increase the rail network capacity by getting fast trains off the West coast, midlands and east coast mainlines allowing more regional services & freight on those. Which is also why building only to Birmingham would be a complete waste of time.

The alternatives aren't viable:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 92776.html
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Jdsk
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Re: HS2 and "Leveling-Up"

Post by Jdsk »

Screenshot 2021-11-18 at 12.04.25.png
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... s-confirms

East-Midlands - Leeds scrapped.

Interesting spin: this way improvements can come faster...

Jonathan
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simonineaston
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Re: HS2 and "Leveling-Up"

Post by simonineaston »

At heart, all Torys despise anybody who travels by train or bicycle...
S
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mjr
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Re: HS2 and "Leveling-Up"

Post by mjr »

This sees like short-termism and folly. When you look at a map of railway speeds like https://www.openrailwaymap.org/?lang=en ... e=standard the 125mph yellow bits are the East Coast and Great Western with some bits of the southern Midland Mainline and Birmingham to Derby and Coventry. It makes sense to build a fast line London-Birmingham-Manchester where there is none, but links to Sheffield and Leeds are also fairly slow, with an 80-90mph amble to Sheffield from the fast bit of the Midland and a 100-then-50-then-85mph route through Wakefield to Leeds from the fast East Coast.

I'm really surprised that both high-speed routes to Leeds have been cancelled and I think the government knows they've injured the area by the way they are promising upgrades for the West Yorks Metro.

I assume the Leeds-Manchester electrification and upgrades are for the Huddersfield Line, as it's reportedly missing Bradford. I think that has long viaducts and tunnels so significant upgrades won't be cheap, which may explain some reports saying it'll only be £4bn cheaper than HS3.
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Stevek76
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Re: HS2 and "Leveling-Up"

Post by Stevek76 »

Treasury short termism all over this. Basically kneecaps HS2, will lead to years of disruption due to online improvements and, if you look at the timescales doesn't even provide much gain there. Something much worse delivered a couple of years earlier. The eastern leg will have to be delivered at some point anyway, just at greater cost.

Much in the same way that building East-west rail in the South without electrification and possibly even without scope to easily electrify in the future costs far more in the long run.

Running HS2 trains on the ECML will do nothing for capacity on that stretch. The whole thing has the feel of something that's been put together by people with no actual knowledge of how rail actually works to the point that there are blatant errors and misunderstandings in the IRP that was published today.
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Psamathe
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Re: HS2 and "Leveling-Up"

Post by Psamathe »

Johnson got the votes he wanted already and doesn't need them at the moment.

Just like with other issues where those voting for it and "won" and then started declaring "not what I voted for ...", so those whose switched votes helped Johnson into power can now do the "not the rail system I voted for ...".

Why do people keep believing Johnson and then declare their disappointment when they discover it was all lies? We knew he compulsively breaks promises so one part of me thinks such broken promises are completely predictable, foregone conclusion. Why did people think this time would be different?

Ian
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Re: HS2 and "Leveling-Up"

Post by Pinkie »

mjr wrote: 18 Nov 2021, 3:03pm This sees like short-termism and folly. When you look at a map of railway speeds like https://www.openrailwaymap.org/?lang=en ... e=standard the 125mph yellow bits are the East Coast and Great Western with some bits of the southern Midland Mainline and Birmingham to Derby and Coventry. It makes sense to build a fast line London-Birmingham-Manchester where there is none, but links to Sheffield and Leeds are also fairly slow, with an 80-90mph amble to Sheffield from the fast bit of the Midland and a 100-then-50-then-85mph route through Wakefield to Leeds from the fast East Coast.

I'm really surprised that both high-speed routes to Leeds have been cancelled and I think the government knows they've injured the area by the way they are promising upgrades for the West Yorks Metro.

I assume the Leeds-Manchester electrification and upgrades are for the Huddersfield Line, as it's reportedly missing Bradford. I think that has long viaducts and tunnels so significant upgrades won't be cheap, which may explain some reports saying it'll only be £4bn cheaper than HS3.
I'm at a loss to see how spending billions to transport people from Manchester to Leeds 20 minutes ( or what ever) quicker will in anyway help the economy of either Leeds or Manchester to prosper.

considering that very few people went anywhere for 12 months and just had zoom meetings, and it all seemed to work ok.

With teliicommutingand telimeetings actually going anywhere is a bit 20th century. Faster broadband is what we need, not faster trains

Nb the scenic ride from manchester to Leeds is just fine as it is, comfier trains would be good, but going faster would spoil the view
atoz
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Re: HS2 and "Leveling-Up"

Post by atoz »

The Bradford extension was a joke, and would have been disastrous. It meant moving the station further out up the hill so to site it on a curve, not convenient for commuters to the city centre. Also there was no attempt to connect with the other station at Forster Square, so no cross connectivity to Airedale and ultimately Scotland.

People should know that the Leeds line from Bradford Interchange has a tight curve and steep gradient. There was no mention in the plans of the necessity for considerable engineering works to overcome this just out of the new station.

I an very familiar with this line and know the route.

The best plan would have been to move the station back to its original location on the other side of Bridge Street, which would be much closer to Forster Square. Yes it would be a dead end but a better connected one. It will never now be possible to connect both stations on through tracks now because of the new shopping centre and nearby retail park. But at least you could comfortably walk to make connections. I did this years ago in the days of the old Exchange station.

Quite frankly Boris did people a favour, unlike the ridiculous local politicians who obviously don't travel to Bradford by train. Please be advised, I am not a Tory voter or a member of Boris's fan club, but in his inept stumbling way he for once got one decision right...lol


mjr wrote: 18 Nov 2021, 3:03pm This sees like short-termism and folly. When you look at a map of railway speeds like https://www.openrailwaymap.org/?lang=en ... e=standard the 125mph yellow bits are the East Coast and Great Western with some bits of the southern Midland Mainline and Birmingham to Derby and Coventry. It makes sense to build a fast line London-Birmingham-Manchester where there is none, but links to Sheffield and Leeds are also fairly slow, with an 80-90mph amble to Sheffield from the fast bit of the Midland and a 100-then-50-then-85mph route through Wakefield to Leeds from the fast East Coast.

I'm really surprised that both high-speed routes to Leeds have been cancelled and I think the government knows they've injured the area by the way they are promising upgrades for the West Yorks Metro.

I assume the Leeds-Manchester electrification and upgrades are for the Huddersfield Line, as it's reportedly missing Bradford. I think that has long viaducts and tunnels so significant upgrades won't be cheap, which may explain some reports saying it'll only be £4bn cheaper than HS3.
Pinkie
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Re: HS2 and "Leveling-Up"

Post by Pinkie »

atoz wrote: 18 Nov 2021, 11:14pm The Bradford extension was a joke, and would have been disastrous. It meant moving the station further out up the hill so to site it on a curve, not convenient for commuters to the city centre. Also there was no attempt to connect with the other station at Forster Square, so no cross connectivity to Airedale and ultimately Scotland.

People should know that the Leeds line from Bradford Interchange has a tight curve and steep gradient. There was no mention in the plans of the necessity for considerable engineering works to overcome this just out of the new station.

I an very familiar with this line and know the route.

The best plan would have been to move the station back to its original location on the other side of Bridge Street, which would be much closer to Forster Square. Yes it would be a dead end but a better connected one. It will never now be possible to connect both stations on through tracks now because of the new shopping centre and nearby retail park. But at least you could comfortably walk to make connections. I did this years ago in the days of the old Exchange station.

Quite frankly Boris did people a favour, unlike the ridiculous local politicians who obviously don't travel to Bradford by train. Please be advised, I am not a Tory voter or a member of Boris's fan club, but in his inept stumbling way he for once got one decision right...lol


mjr wrote: 18 Nov 2021, 3:03pm This sees like short-termism and folly. When you look at a map of railway speeds like https://www.openrailwaymap.org/?lang=en ... e=standard the 125mph yellow bits are the East Coast and Great Western with some bits of the southern Midland Mainline and Birmingham to Derby and Coventry. It makes sense to build a fast line London-Birmingham-Manchester where there is none, but links to Sheffield and Leeds are also fairly slow, with an 80-90mph amble to Sheffield from the fast bit of the Midland and a 100-then-50-then-85mph route through Wakefield to Leeds from the fast East Coast.

I'm really surprised that both high-speed routes to Leeds have been cancelled and I think the government knows they've injured the area by the way they are promising upgrades for the West Yorks Metro.

I assume the Leeds-Manchester electrification and upgrades are for the Huddersfield Line, as it's reportedly missing Bradford. I think that has long viaducts and tunnels so significant upgrades won't be cheap, which may explain some reports saying it'll only be £4bn cheaper than HS3.
The problem with high speed connecting of uninspiring places like Bradford to slightly more illustrious places like Leeds and Manchester, is it tends to suck the economy out of places like Bradford and move it to the more inspiring places
PhilD28
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Re: HS2 and "Leveling-Up"

Post by PhilD28 »

"Quite frankly Boris did people a favour, unlike the ridiculous local politicians who obviously don't travel to Bradford by train. Please be advised, I am not a Tory voter or a member of Boris's fan club, but in his inept stumbling way he for once got one decision right...lol"

I have no local knowledge so can't really comment on the new arrangements.

However, I think the point that many people around the country have made is that Johnson yet again promised something (lied) and then failed to deliver it. This should be just one more example of how this man and his cabinet can not be trusted and should not be in a position to make imprtant promises or decisions.

I suppose until all his supporters and voters experience the effects of his lying first hand he will continue to have their support, particularly with forthcoming changes to the Daily Mail management.
Jdsk
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Re: HS2 and "Leveling-Up"

Post by Jdsk »

Cherrypicking particular small savings on particular journey times misses the point (or, indeed, points). As with every other change to transport the benefits can't be maximised without an integrated policy. In this case that should involve unloading mixed-mode lines so that they can carry more freight, making rail travel competitive with short-haul air travel, and making road usage pay its externalities.

There was little enough vision in HS2, but now there's only a collection of ad hoc projects and a whiff of pork barrel.

Jonathan

PS: HS2 always had some major design problems, including not reaching Heathrow and the absence of high-speed connection to other European countries.
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