HS2 and "Leveling-Up"

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millimole
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Re: HS2 and "Leveling-Up"

Post by millimole »

The decision to end the line at East Midlands Parkway instead of Toton is another good decision.
Toton was always in the wrong place for both Derby and Nottingham with poor accessibility from both along the congested A52.
It adds the ability to run the HS2 services along newly electrified lines into central Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield - none of which was envisaged with HS2.
Electrifying this stretch opens up the long overdue electrification of Market Harborough North through Leicester, thus improving services to Leicester and increasing capacity in the Midlands Mainline for both freight and additional services from Corby, Nottingham and Derby, as well as the potential for new routes to places like Lincoln, and the west Midlands.

I know its unfashionable (and I'm certainly not a Boris fan boy) but for the East Midlands this is a good report.
Leicester; Riding my Hetchins since 1971; Day rides on my Dawes; Going to the shops on a Decathlon Hoprider
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mjr
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Re: HS2 and "Leveling-Up"

Post by mjr »

Pinkie wrote: 18 Nov 2021, 10:53pmI'm at a loss to see how spending billions to transport people from Manchester to Leeds 20 minutes ( or what ever) quicker will in anyway help the economy of either Leeds or Manchester to prosper.
It's not only connecting those two cities but all places beyond one to all places beyond the other, so Hull to Liverpool or York to Chester or even Newcastle to Dublin become faster and better-connected too. It helps reduce a longstanding weakness in the North that most routes face a city three regions away instead of connecting them to each other and neighbouring big cities like Birmingham and Edinburgh.
considering that very few people went anywhere for 12 months and just had zoom meetings, and it all seemed to work ok.
Do you work? In what line? If retired or between jobs, what was your work?

Telemeeting didn't really work OK. It barely covered the gap for a few months, and is possible most of the time for longer for online workers like me, but it's really not possible all the time for most people, in businesses from ones that obviously are difficult to do remotely to less obvious ones like medical equipment where both sales staff and designers sometimes need to go and see where and how their products will be used. There's a lot of postponed and suppressed trips that are starting to happen now and a lot more will happen next spring once the next wave(s) fade.
atoz wrote: 18 Nov 2021, 11:14pm The Bradford extension was a joke, and would have been disastrous. It meant moving the station further out up the hill so to site it on a curve, not convenient for commuters to the city centre. Also there was no attempt to connect with the other station at Forster Square, so no cross connectivity to Airedale and ultimately Scotland.
I know the route, having used both it and FS while working in Bradford a bit way back when. I haven't seen any confirmed route for HS3. Where was the station going to be and where can we see the route, please?
Pinkie wrote: 18 Nov 2021, 11:56pm The problem with high speed connecting of uninspiring places like Bradford to slightly more illustrious places like Leeds and Manchester, is it tends to suck the economy out of places like Bradford and move it to the more inspiring places
Two big problems with that: firstly, aren't Leeds and Manchester more illustrious because they're better connected; and secondly, Bradford's Victorianesque heart seemed pretty inspiring to me and its main problem seemed to be that it's a pig to get to: 1h20 Peterborough to Leeds, then about another 50 minutes to reach Bradford (20mins waiting and 30 travelling to Forster Square, or vice-versa for an Interchange service).
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thirdcrank
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Re: HS2 and "Leveling-Up"

Post by thirdcrank »

I think the plan was to use the site of St James's Market in Bradford

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.7891951,-1.742491,18z

If you've not been to Bradford recently, you might be surprised how much the centre has deteriorated
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mjr
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Re: HS2 and

Post by mjr »

millimole wrote: 19 Nov 2021, 8:46am The decision to end the line at East Midlands Parkway instead of Toton is another good decision.
Toton was always in the wrong place for both Derby and Nottingham with poor accessibility from both along the congested A52.
Yes, if it's not continuing to Sheffield and Leeds, then EM Parkway is a better place to end it, even if it means a route change.

While poor for car access directly, Toton was in a good place for the Nottingham Trams, with Line 1 currently ending nearby in Toton Lane Park&Ride. EM Parkway will need a longer extension of Line 2 from Clifton P&R along or alongside the A453, hopefully without disrupting the Clifton-EMP-Kegworth cycle route on what looks like the former A road (Green Street).
I know its unfashionable (and I'm certainly not a Boris fan boy) but for the East Midlands this is a good report.
Only as long as you want to go south, not north beyond Sheffield!
thirdcrank wrote: I think the plan was to use the site of St James's Market in Bradford

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.7891951,-1.742491,18z

If you've not been to Bradford recently, you might be surprised how much the centre has deteriorated
Thanks and yes, I worked there at least 15 years ago. A quick look at 2020 photos of vacant shops, fast food, vape shops and other similar typically-short-term marginal tenants does make it look like the centre has been hit hard.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
Pinkie
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Re: HS2 and "Leveling-Up"

Post by Pinkie »

mjr wrote: 19 Nov 2021, 11:27am
Pinkie wrote: 18 Nov 2021, 10:53pmI'm at a loss to see how spending billions to transport people from Manchester to Leeds 20 minutes ( or what ever) quicker will in anyway help the economy of either Leeds or Manchester to prosper.
It's not only connecting those two cities but all places beyond one to all places beyond the other, so Hull to Liverpool or York to Chester or even Newcastle to Dublin become faster and better-connected too. It helps reduce a longstanding weakness in the North that most routes face a city three regions away instead of connecting them to each other and neighbouring big cities like Birmingham and Edinburgh.
considering that very few people went anywhere for 12 months and just had zoom meetings, and it all seemed to work ok.
Do you work? In what line? If retired or between jobs, what was your work?

Telemeeting didn't really work OK. It barely covered the gap for a few months, and is possible most of the time for longer for online workers like me, but it's really not possible all the time for most people, in businesses from ones that obviously are difficult to do remotely to less obvious ones like medical equipment where both sales staff and designers sometimes need to go and see where and how their products will be used. There's a lot of postponed and suppressed trips that are starting to happen now and a lot more will happen next spring once the next wave(s) fade.
atoz wrote: 18 Nov 2021, 11:14pm The Bradford extension was a joke, and would have been disastrous. It meant moving the station further out up the hill so to site it on a curve, not convenient for commuters to the city centre. Also there was no attempt to connect with the other station at Forster Square, so no cross connectivity to Airedale and ultimately Scotland.
I know the route, having used both it and FS while working in Bradford a bit way back when. I haven't seen any confirmed route for HS3. Where was the station going to be and where can we see the route, please?
Pinkie wrote: 18 Nov 2021, 11:56pm The problem with high speed connecting of uninspiring places like Bradford to slightly more illustrious places like Leeds and Manchester, is it tends to suck the economy out of places like Bradford and move it to the more inspiring places
Two big problems with that: firstly, aren't Leeds and Manchester more illustrious because they're better connected; and secondly, Bradford's Victorianesque heart seemed pretty inspiring to me and its main problem seemed to be that it's a pig to get to: 1h20 Peterborough to Leeds, then about another 50 minutes to reach Bradford (20mins waiting and 30 travelling to Forster Square, or vice-versa for an Interchange service).
I'm now thankfully retired, but I was a director in facilities management for a listed company, I was actually a,director of the parent company and a,senior manager for the facilities management company, so literally my own boss. I used to send reports to myself, which cut down on meetings

But lots of travel for meetings is unnecessary, and can be easily achieved by zoom. Some times you do need to go and actually look at things, so it replaces a big % of travel rather than travel all together.

Your not getting service engineers on a train, no matter how fast it is, the challenge is getting directors/ managers out of their mercs and on trains, faster trains wont help that, the train is,all ready significantly faster manchester to london than driving at most times of day

I have spent an inordinate amount of my life on the west coast main line, but that's largely as I used to like a day out iin London every week rather than their being any actual need to visit the London contracts
Psamathe
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Re: HS2 and "Leveling-Up"

Post by Psamathe »

I've no idea how true it is but one of the let down mayors on TV last night was saying how even confirmed plans for much better connectivity and transport links encourages investment into an area - which makes sense to me. When a company is deciding where to locate it's a long term decision and good fast communications links must be an important consideration even if not operational for a number of years.

But again Londoners get the full promised package, north does not.

Ian
thirdcrank
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Re: HS2 and "Leveling-Up"

Post by thirdcrank »

I think that Leeds' better transport connections helped it do better than Bradford in the post-industrial era. Although both cities had plenty of other trades, Bradford was predominantly a wool cloth producing centre, while Leeds was tailoring (Montague Burton's covered a huge part of east Leeds) and engineering. Most of that collapsed in both cities but Leeds has a better rail connection with London and also used to proclaim itself as the Motorway City of the Seventies, when the M1 used to end near to the city centre. That allowed Leeds to develop as a bit of a financial centre but I think that was fairly short-lived. Leeds has done much better as a retail shopping centre than Bradford so the problems of traditional shops have hit Bradford really hard.
Pinkie
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Re: HS2 and "Leveling-Up"

Post by Pinkie »

Psamathe wrote: 19 Nov 2021, 11:49am I've no idea how true it is but one of the let down mayors on TV last night was saying how even confirmed plans for much better connectivity and transport links encourages investment into an area - which makes sense to me. When a company is deciding where to locate it's a long term decision and good fast communications links must be an important consideration even if not operational for a number of years.

But again Londoners get the full promised package, north does not.

Ian
I think that's the theory of the first two industrial revolutions, I'm not sure it's actually a glued on certainty now.

The north has significant infrastructure issues that need addressing, a fast train from leeds to london is well down the list of priorities that I'd compile let's start small and install some shelters at bus stops, then have a bus service worthy of the name , people have to get off these fast trains and get where they are going
Tangled Metal
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Re: HS2 and "Leveling-Up"

Post by Tangled Metal »

Predicting train use by occupation is a bit daft imho. People travel for many reasons and many jobs. Zoom meetings don't allow you to see product to test production, to check quality systems, to audit, etc.

The other point of infrastructure it develops further use. The absolute classic is motorways. They meet future use when built but how long before they become busy and things need to be rethought. I think it forgets this factor when you look at what is here now to decide if it's of use in the future.

New rail routes in London had no users before being opened. People coped with the existing network so perhaps they should have saved the money? Wasn't it the biggest rail infrastructure build in Europe at the time? Why was that worth it when hs2 in it's full design not? I seriously doubt the crossrail was significantly higher return on investment. I believe I read somewhere a report comparing that and hs2 was likely to be better.

Whatever the exact details such infrastructure builds release a lot more development budgets such that the view before being built is improved on by reality after its been built.

There is so much good to hs2 that cutting back or stopping it should be seen as incompetence or neglect of duty. My serious solution to north south divide is to ditch Westminster Parliament with it's decrepitude and move parliament to northern or central Britain. Say Manchester or Liverpool. Get them away from their comfort zones in London Town and actually up north facing the people they've let down for generations now.

Only problem is London house prices will probably follow. :roll:
Tangled Metal
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Re: HS2 and "Leveling-Up"

Post by Tangled Metal »

TfL needs replicating across the country. We need full and effective integration between transport types imho. Even cars!

I find it interesting that out here on a branch line that a certain train at a certain time links with a local bus that travels around small and large villages near the station. The station is popular despite being 2 miles out from the village with the same name. That bus is there waiting for the usually only a couple of minutes late if not on time train. But not every day the train and bus are scheduled services but why not coordinated every day?

It's this that needs sorting out across the UK not just London. TfL contributes to this in London. Why not something for the rest of the UK or many such, well funded bodies.
thirdcrank
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Re: HS2 and "Leveling-Up"

Post by thirdcrank »

The first part of this thread touched on the decision-making process and it seems increasingly clear that Boris Johnson decides, or appears to do so, then Boris Johnson may or may not change is mind. Any theory of cabinet government is illusory. When ministers accept a request to do a media interview, whether it's about their own portfolio or not, they may not know what they are supporting in that policy may have changed between leaving home and reaching the studio. Boris Johnson was careful to get rid of most of the people who were not his fervent supporters but now he seems increasingly relaxed about dumping chums when it's in his own interest.
atoz
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Re: HS2 and "Leveling-Up"

Post by atoz »

So, a politician lied. Quel surprise.

The real problem with the Bradford scheme was its lack of ambition. What Bradford needed was a through station allowing not just trains from London to call in en route to Leeds, but through connections via linking up with the route from Forster Square to Skipton and ultimately Glasgow. West Yorks combined authority could have put their weight behind this but instead indulged in political cowardice and opted for crumbs from the Northern Powerhouse table. Tugging forelocks never works. Yes it would have involved ripping out the new shopping development, but it would have been worth it. Sadly our so called local representatives don't have the same entrepreneurial flair as their Victorian predecessors.

PhilD28 wrote: 19 Nov 2021, 7:47am "Quite frankly Boris did people a favour, unlike the ridiculous local politicians who obviously don't travel to Bradford by train. Please be advised, I am not a Tory voter or a member of Boris's fan club, but in his inept stumbling way he for once got one decision right...lol"

I have no local knowledge so can't really comment on the new arrangements.

However, I think the point that many people around the country have made is that Johnson yet again promised something (lied) and then failed to deliver it. This should be just one more example of how this man and his cabinet can not be trusted and should not be in a position to make imprtant promises or decisions.

I suppose until all his supporters and voters experience the effects of his lying first hand he will continue to have their support, particularly with forthcoming changes to the Daily Mail management.
Pinkie
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Re: HS2 and "Leveling-Up"

Post by Pinkie »

atoz wrote: 19 Nov 2021, 7:19pm So, a politician lied. Quel surprise.

The real problem with the Bradford scheme was its lack of ambition. What Bradford needed was a through station allowing not just trains from London to call in en route to Leeds, but through connections via linking up with the route from Forster Square to Skipton and ultimately Glasgow. West Yorks combined authority could have put their weight behind this but instead indulged in political cowardice and opted for crumbs from the Northern Powerhouse table. Tugging forelocks never works. Yes it would have involved ripping out the new shopping development, but it would have been worth it. Sadly our so called local representatives don't have the same entrepreneurial flair as their Victorian predecessors.

PhilD28 wrote: 19 Nov 2021, 7:47am "Quite frankly Boris did people a favour, unlike the ridiculous local politicians who obviously don't travel to Bradford by train. Please be advised, I am not a Tory voter or a member of Boris's fan club, but in his inept stumbling way he for once got one decision right...lol"

I have no local knowledge so can't really comment on the new arrangements.

However, I think the point that many people around the country have made is that Johnson yet again promised something (lied) and then failed to deliver it. This should be just one more example of how this man and his cabinet can not be trusted and should not be in a position to make imprtant promises or decisions.

I suppose until all his supporters and voters experience the effects of his lying first hand he will continue to have their support, particularly with forthcoming changes to the Daily Mail management.
Is there a pressing need for people to travel from Bradford to Skipton and Glasgow or vice versa ?
thirdcrank
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Re: HS2 and "Leveling-Up"

Post by thirdcrank »

I don't claim any knowledge of planning routes for railways but I fancy the visionary route would be to use some of the A650 (which passes the St James's wholesale market) and its continuation on the Shipley-Airedale Road which runs past Foster Square whose former sidings are now a retail park.

For anybody unfamiliar with Bradford, an earlier traffic plan included a couple of motorways across Bradford and as they so often do, they built the easy bits first. The M606 stopped near Odsal, and for some years just dangled in the air. The Shipley-Airedale road skirts the city centre but traffic leaving towards Wakefield goes from being a DC with three lanes in each direction to a two-way single carriageway at Tong Cemetery and a bottleneck which seems unlikely to see any sort of road widening.

(They've already seen the light and closed the majority of the pedestrian subways which turned out to be a total failure.)
Psamathe
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Re: HS2 and "Leveling-Up"

Post by Psamathe »

North loses more control over transport
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/hs2-boris-johnson-news-latest-b1961287.html wrote:Boris Johnson strips northern transport body of powers and funding
The government has removed powers and funding from the umbrella transport authority for the north, following the body’s furious reaction to cuts to the flagship Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) project.

In a letter to TfN chief executive Martin Tugwell, the Department for Transport said it would be taking sole responsibility for directing future work on the project.

Labour described the change as a Whitehall “power grab”. Shadow transport secretary Jim McMahon said: “It was clear that once Transport for the North found its own voice and came up with a Northern Powerhouse Rail plan the government didn’t support, it would meet its end.”

Andy Burnham, mayor of Greater Manchester, said it was clear Whitehall did not want the north to have a strong voice. He said he would “fight” for the survival of TfN.
Ian
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