Moderates and Extremists

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Jdsk
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Re: Moderates and Extremists

Post by Jdsk »

francovendee wrote: 3 Aug 2021, 8:56am
Jdsk wrote: 2 Aug 2021, 10:05am Humans are not going to be annihilated in the foreseeable future. Global health and quality of life are increasing. Starvation is decreasing.

Whatever has happened in the past we have a choice about the future. Starting... now.
Not annihilated but maybe culled?
The pandemic has shown how vulnerable we are. If a new virus appears will we find a vaccine as quickly?
We've got two great vectors for future vaccines, and have learnt a vast amount in addition.

Countries that had experienced SARS (eg Canada, Taiwan) were better prepared.

And the UK might have been... we did have a pandemic at the top of the National Risk Register but it got lost somehow.

What Malthus underestimated, of course, was innovation.

Jonathan
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Hellhound
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Re: Moderates and Extremists

Post by Hellhound »

Oldjohnw wrote: 3 Aug 2021, 12:58pm As always, I am sure you are right.
You’ll understand if I don’t engage but in the month or so you have been here you’ve corrected the moderators, the administrators, you’ve told me, unasked, how to work out the cost per mile of owning my car which I know perfectly well, my spelling and now this,
Who is that Super-hero....... :lol:
pwa
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Re: Moderates and Extremists

Post by pwa »

mattheus wrote: 3 Aug 2021, 12:25pm (but isn't it absurd that a climate protestor delaying a train gets bracketed with someone killing random strangers who don't agree with their religion! )
Yes, more than a little OTT. But both are extreme in their views or tactics, in relation to the norm, so I have no problem with thinking of a climate emergency protestor who climbs onto the roof of a tube train as an "extremist", so long as "extremist" is not taken to mean "terrorist". Confusion comes from equating Terrorism and Extremism. In my own way of looking at things, all Terrorists (as I define them, not as others do) are Extremists, but not all Extremists are Terrorists. And ( also my own personal take on it), whilst most Extremists are wrong, every now and again some will be right.
mattheus
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Re: Moderates and Extremists

Post by mattheus »

pwa wrote: 5 Aug 2021, 10:50am
mattheus wrote: 3 Aug 2021, 12:25pm (but isn't it absurd that a climate protestor delaying a train gets bracketed with someone killing random strangers who don't agree with their religion! )
Yes, more than a little OTT. But both are extreme in their views or tactics, in relation to the norm, so I have no problem with thinking of a climate emergency protestor who climbs onto the roof of a tube train as an "extremist", so long as "extremist" is not taken to mean "terrorist". Confusion comes from equating Terrorism and Extremism. In my own way of looking at things, all Terrorists (as I define them, not as others do) are Extremists, but not all Extremists are Terrorists. And ( also my own personal take on it), whilst most Extremists are wrong, every now and again some will be right.
Hmmm, do these statements hang together? Is a climate protestor wrong if he/she uses tactics that are extreme in relation to the norm?
Whilst someone who believes in subjugating women/jews/blacks is "moderate" as long as they just parade with a sign, and don't delay anyone's commute?
Forgive me if I've twisted your words.

I suppose I'm a little biased as I tend to side with climate protestors, no matter how they protest - especially as they rarely kill, maim or enslave anyone!
Jdsk
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Re: Moderates and Extremists

Post by Jdsk »

pwa wrote: 5 Aug 2021, 10:50amBut both are extreme in their views or tactics, in relation to the norm, so I have no problem with thinking of a climate emergency protestor who climbs onto the roof of a tube train as an "extremist", so long as "extremist" is not taken to mean "terrorist".
Yes, it describes a position on an axis, and there are many different axes available.

But terrorist is notoriously problematic to define...

Jonathan
Mike Sales
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Re: Moderates and Extremists

Post by Mike Sales »

Jdsk wrote: 5 Aug 2021, 2:28pm
But terrorist is notoriously problematic to define...

Jonathan
When the Americans proclaimed their intention of producing "shock and awe" in Iraq I thought the phrase was a pretty good synonym for terror. White phosphorous in Fallujah was a very nasty weapon to use in civilian areas.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
pwa
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Re: Moderates and Extremists

Post by pwa »

mattheus wrote: 5 Aug 2021, 2:08pm
pwa wrote: 5 Aug 2021, 10:50am
mattheus wrote: 3 Aug 2021, 12:25pm (but isn't it absurd that a climate protestor delaying a train gets bracketed with someone killing random strangers who don't agree with their religion! )
Yes, more than a little OTT. But both are extreme in their views or tactics, in relation to the norm, so I have no problem with thinking of a climate emergency protestor who climbs onto the roof of a tube train as an "extremist", so long as "extremist" is not taken to mean "terrorist". Confusion comes from equating Terrorism and Extremism. In my own way of looking at things, all Terrorists (as I define them, not as others do) are Extremists, but not all Extremists are Terrorists. And ( also my own personal take on it), whilst most Extremists are wrong, every now and again some will be right.
Hmmm, do these statements hang together? Is a climate protestor wrong if he/she uses tactics that are extreme in relation to the norm?
Whilst someone who believes in subjugating women/jews/blacks is "moderate" as long as they just parade with a sign, and don't delay anyone's commute?
Forgive me if I've twisted your words.

I suppose I'm a little biased as I tend to side with climate protestors, no matter how they protest - especially as they rarely kill, maim or enslave anyone!
Strictly speaking, someone who is "extremist" could be right or wrong. It is simply being far removed from the norm that makes them extremist.

If we take racist views as an example, within Apartheid South Africa in, say, the 1980s, having racist views was the norm within the dominant white community, and therefore not "extremist" as seen from their standpoint. But that didn't make it right.

Looking at the very different example of climate change protestors, I agree that the "extremists" among them are much less of a worry than extremists who use violence. Whether their tactics are good is another discussion altogether.

What I am trying to put over is the notion that the word "extremist" means "far removed from the norm", and people who fall into that category are usually a bit of a worry to others because they rock the boat. But the word "extremist" on its own does not tell you whether they are right or wrong.
mikeonabike
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Re: Moderates and Extremists

Post by mikeonabike »

pwa wrote: 6 Aug 2021, 6:29am What I am trying to put over is the notion that the word "extremist" means "far removed from the norm", and people who fall into that category are usually a bit of a worry to others because they rock the boat. But the word "extremist" on its own does not tell you whether they are right or wrong.
So would you call a trainspotter "extremist" because after all it is not the norm for people to go trainspotting? Do trainspotters rock the boat? And what is wrong with rocking the boat?
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Mick F
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Re: Moderates and Extremists

Post by Mick F »

mikeonabike wrote: 8 Aug 2021, 6:41pm And what is wrong with rocking the boat?
Absolutely nothing! :D

I love "rocking the boat" and asking awkward and unpopular questions.
Someone has to do it.
Mick F. Cornwall
Oldjohnw
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Re: Moderates and Extremists

Post by Oldjohnw »

Can Trainspotters rock boats?
John
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Mick F
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Re: Moderates and Extremists

Post by Mick F »

Yes, of course!

Upset the norms of the hobby.
Start collecting registration numbers of cars instead of locomotives.
Mick F. Cornwall
Oldjohnw
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Re: Moderates and Extremists

Post by Oldjohnw »

Mick F wrote: 8 Aug 2021, 7:54pm Yes, of course!

Upset the norms of the hobby.
Start collecting registration numbers of cars instead of locomotives.
I think you may have missed that I was referring to the mixed metaphor.. my attempt at humour badly failed!
John
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Mick F
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Re: Moderates and Extremists

Post by Mick F »

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Your humour was not lost on me at all.

I was trying to be obtuse about it.
Mick F. Cornwall
Oldjohnw
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Re: Moderates and Extremists

Post by Oldjohnw »

Mick F wrote: 8 Aug 2021, 8:25pm :lol: :lol: :lol:
Your humour was not lost on me at all.

I was trying to be obtuse about it.
👍😃
John
pwa
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Re: Moderates and Extremists

Post by pwa »

mikeonabike wrote: 8 Aug 2021, 6:41pm
pwa wrote: 6 Aug 2021, 6:29am What I am trying to put over is the notion that the word "extremist" means "far removed from the norm", and people who fall into that category are usually a bit of a worry to others because they rock the boat. But the word "extremist" on its own does not tell you whether they are right or wrong.
So would you call a trainspotter "extremist" because after all it is not the norm for people to go trainspotting? Do trainspotters rock the boat? And what is wrong with rocking the boat?
Did I say there is anything wrong with rocking the boat? There might be, or there might not, depending how it is done.
Trainspotters are not usually considered to be extremists, because their unusual behaviour is not challenging, and they don't advocate their choices for everyone else. They are considered "eccentrics". Beyond their hobby they are likely to be quite normal.
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