Anyone for Gas?

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Jdsk
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

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Oldjohnw
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

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John
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661-Pete
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

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DevonDamo wrote: 22 Sep 2021, 9:53am
Vorpal wrote: 22 Sep 2021, 8:45am Are they supposed to break in to do this insulating?
Could I remind fellow members that we've been asked not to "insult others, either directly, or indirectly."
I think we need a smiley to indicate 'rhetorical question'. Surely Vorpal is the one of the people here least likely to insult anyone!
al_yrpal wrote: 22 Sep 2021, 8:26am I think the protestors would be much more successful if they selected various types of buildings, homes, public buildings, factories, shopping centres etc and measured their energy usage, then insulated them properly and advertised the results widely and loudly. The savings in money, the savings in greenhouse gases, and the feelings that you were doing your bit would actually spur many people on. Positive rather than negative...
Much better than the extremist antisocial nutter label that these protestors are tarred with presently which is manna from heaven for the gutter press.
All very creditable. I was going to ask, where's the money going to come from? - but Vorpal has picked up on that point.

Re the tabloids: trouble is, they prefer to print negative news. News about people doing something wrong, or something destructive, that sort of input is indeed the 'manna from heaven' that they crave. If on the other hand a group of people choose to do something good, for the benefit of humanity and for the planet, that's a non-story - for them. It'll be relegated to the foot of page 94 or wherever....
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
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mjr
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by mjr »

661-Pete wrote: 21 Sep 2021, 11:27pm And I thought there was supposed to be a moratorium on all 'smart' conversions which have now been proven to be dangerous. So what's going on?
I think that is in error and have questioned it in the smart motorways topic at viewtopic.php?f=15&t=116928&p=1640116#p1640116
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Vorpal
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by Vorpal »

DevonDamo wrote: 22 Sep 2021, 9:53am
Vorpal wrote: 22 Sep 2021, 8:45am
al_yrpal wrote: 22 Sep 2021, 8:26am I think the protestors would be much more successful if they selected various types of buildings, homes, public buildings, factories, shopping centres etc and measured their energy usage, then insulated them properly and advertised the results widely and loudly. The savings in money, the savings in greenhouse gases, and the feelings that you were doing your bit would actually spur many people on. Positive rather than negative...
Much better than the extremist antisocial nutter label that these protestors are tarred with presently which is manna from heaven for the gutter press.

Al
Are they supposed to break in to do this insulating?
Could I remind fellow members that we've been asked not to "insult others, either directly, or indirectly." Al didn't suggest that these buildings were to be insulated against the owners' will, and it's insulting to imply that he would propose such a ludicrous idea.

Might I also take the opportunity to apologise to Al for my disgraceful earlier post, where I'd used a Victorian Punch cartoon pastiche to liken my fellow forum member's concern about the behaviour of climate protesters to someone being upset about the pushy nature of the pro-paddlers rather than the fact that their canoe was about to go over the edge of a waterfall. Quite rightly a certain moderator deleted this post for the gross offence, anxiety and trauma it would have caused.

As they say: LOL.
The idea that people might break in to insulate buildings was not meant seriously, much less as a suggestion that Al was proposing such a thing. It honestly didn't occur to me that anyone might take it seriously.
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DevonDamo
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by DevonDamo »

Vorpal wrote: 22 Sep 2021, 11:18amThe idea that people might break in to insulate buildings was not meant seriously, much less as a suggestion that Al was proposing such a thing. It honestly didn't occur to me that anyone might take it seriously.
That's the point. If the question had been meant seriously, it would have been naïve, but sincere and non-insulting. Instead, as 661-Pete correctly identifies above, it was a rhetorical question, i.e. one asked not for an answer but to make a point. That point was clearly to ridicule what Al had just said.

I'm all for ridiculing posts where appropriate. However, I thought you were taking your usual zero-tolerance policy to this, as indicated by your deletions of posts in this very thread for far less?
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661-Pete
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by 661-Pete »

I was wondering whether Insulate Britain (IB) was an offshoot of Extinction Rebellion (XR): I'd never heard of IB until the recent news stories came up - but I had a quick look at their website. Doesn't tell me much, and there's no evidence to say whether they're connected or not. Protest movements always tend to develop a militant fringe though - rather unfortunate but it happens.

On the whole, mass protests that have blocked roads in our cities - like the People's Vote and Climate Change demos, both of which we've attended in London - get plenty of attention but little acrimony. Perhaps Londoners are used to slow progress through their streets - and the Congestion Charge has probably driven plenty onto public transport - or on their bikes (of course the congestion itself did that, long before).

So how different is the M25? I recall that it's often been dubbed "the world's longest circular car-park" - a bit unfairly perhaps, traffic does move along it most of the time... Now it seems the protesters are threatened with imprisonment, for 'contempt of court'. Over-reaction, Priti-inspired, perhaps?
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
pete75 wrote: 21 Sep 2021, 11:08am
al_yrpal wrote: 21 Sep 2021, 11:05am That was then, this is now.....https://www.carbonbrief.org/mapped-worl ... wer-plants

80 countries have them and others are getting them.

We have closed coal fired stations wholesale because we realised they are a problem.

Al
We closed coal fired power stations because the bloody Tories shut all the pits.
But they were going to close anyway weren't they, not working them means they closed quicker, strikes.
How do you think voting public would manage today with electricity blackouts due to coal strikes?
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Psamathe
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by Psamathe »

Vorpal wrote: 22 Sep 2021, 7:57am
ossie wrote: 21 Sep 2021, 7:30pm
Vorpal wrote: 21 Sep 2021, 11:32am
As far as I am concerned, protesters should shut down the M25 every day. And other motorways, too. The convenience of someone's trip being disrupted is nothing compared to the looming disaster.
Until you have a relative stuck in that traffic who needs urgent medical care. There are a myriad of reasons why these lunatics shouldn't be blocking the M25.
First of all, they don't stay there long do they? The police remove them.

Secondly, emergency vehicles can use the shoulder, and have the possibility to move through congestion.

Thirdly, the M25 is often like that without protesters.
News on Radio 4 this morning said Police were clearing them away within 15 mins. Which does not fit with the LBC phone-in claiming 6 hrs! So who does one believe (BBC news reports from the Police or an anonymous radio phone-in)?

Maybe if things are that bad they should start a Air Ambulance thingy given how often roads end-up grid-locked for 101 different reasons.

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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by al_yrpal »

All we get on climate change is pictures of collapsing glaciers wildfires and disposessed forest animals. Negative images dire warnings and criticisms. Anyone good at motivating people knows that the one thing you must not do is criticise people you are trying to educate, its fundemental. There is no one in England that has not heard of the climate threats that the human race now faces. Raising awareness to an already aware audience is a total waste of time particularly if its aggressive and inconsiderate.
Instead of constant TV programmes aiming to educate Wayne and Shirley how to cut their food bills wouldnt it be more pertinent and interesting to see what measures each of us can take to reduce your own climate damaging activities, what they involve, what they cost and what difference they could actually make. Hence my suggestions to have a jolly good look at the buildings we live work and shop in.
I have recieved all sorts of criticisms over my suggestions, I was an Engineer and spent 8 years of my career around power generation and energy mining and thermodynamics is my thing. I have broad shoulders and I couldnt care less.

Al
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Psamathe
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by Psamathe »

al_yrpal wrote: 22 Sep 2021, 2:05pm All we get on climate change is pictures of collapsing glaciers wildfires and disposessed forest animals. Negative images dire warnings and criticisms. Anyone good at motivating people knows that the one thing you must not do is criticise people you are trying to educate, its fundemental. There is no one in England that has not heard of the climate threats that the human race now faces. Raising awareness to an already aware audience is a total waste of time particularly if its aggressive and inconsiderate.....
There are many aspects to addressing climate change and at the moment our politicians and public awareness seem to be focusing on more cleaner renewable generation. But another aspect I think these protests are trying to highlight is to reduce consumption and thus also reduce the need for the amount of generation. Also highlighting the Government cuts to such schemes e.g. Government abandoning the energy/insulation requirements (zero carbon new build scheme abandoned).

Thus I think they do have a point to make to public and political awareness (a point that is not currently widely known about).

Ian
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by Vorpal »

DevonDamo wrote: 22 Sep 2021, 11:35am
Vorpal wrote: 22 Sep 2021, 11:18amThe idea that people might break in to insulate buildings was not meant seriously, much less as a suggestion that Al was proposing such a thing. It honestly didn't occur to me that anyone might take it seriously.
That's the point. If the question had been meant seriously, it would have been naïve, but sincere and non-insulting. Instead, as 661-Pete correctly identifies above, it was a rhetorical question, i.e. one asked not for an answer but to make a point. That point was clearly to ridicule what Al had just said.

I'm all for ridiculing posts where appropriate. However, I thought you were taking your usual zero-tolerance policy to this, as indicated by your deletions of posts in this very thread for far less?
I have to admit that ridicule is an area where I sometimes miss something or mess up. Although I grew up with an appreciation for British humour (& therefore observed ridicule a la Monty Python), I did not grow up with the culture. I honestly did not intend to ridicule Al. I didn't think that he actually meant the protesters should actually insulate anthing & that his post was at least partly meant in humour, and I was building upon that. I think it's pretty clear that the folks sitting on the M25 probably wouldn't be able to insulate any shopping centres?

I did, however see that some aspects of his suggestion (i.e. that Insulate Britiain could *contribute* to an effort like that) were likely to be meant in earnest & therefore addressed that.

If what I said was ridicule, it was a failure of my understanding, rather than any desire to ridicule Al. For that, I apologize.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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thirdcrank
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by thirdcrank »

Meanwhile, back in the High Court, an injunction has been granted.

Insulate Britain: Injunction granted against M25 protesters

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-b ... s-58649286
DevonDamo
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by DevonDamo »

Vorpal wrote: 22 Sep 2021, 3:07pmIf what I said was ridicule, it was a failure of my understanding, rather than any desire to ridicule Al. For that, I apologize.
I don't believe you should feel any need to apologise for having gently mocked someone's opposing view on one of the great polarised issues of our time. When populism clashes with rationalism, the use of ridicule/sarcasm/etc is one of the few tactics which stand a chance of making people recognise the things that are causing the deadlock i.e., inconsistency, irrationality and a failure to step back and look at the bigger issues.

My point is that trying to banish all the things which you deem to be 'impolite' from this forum is unusual moderation, and means you're making highly subjective judgement calls. This is actually unnecessary as we're all adults, capable of responding as Al did to your comment, and it's also problematic because nobody is infallible. The 'don't upset the moderator' forum rule means you'll never get much criticism, but there is a responsibility that goes with the censorship powers you're so regularly wielding and, as a minimum, that should include answering accusations that you're not living up to the arbitrary standards of politeness you're imposing on everyone else.
pete75
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by pete75 »

NATURAL ANKLING wrote: 22 Sep 2021, 12:30pm Hi,
pete75 wrote: 21 Sep 2021, 11:08am
al_yrpal wrote: 21 Sep 2021, 11:05am That was then, this is now.....https://www.carbonbrief.org/mapped-worl ... wer-plants

80 countries have them and others are getting them.

We have closed coal fired stations wholesale because we realised they are a problem.

Al
We closed coal fired power stations because the bloody Tories shut all the pits.
But they were going to close anyway weren't they, not working them means they closed quicker, strikes.
How do you think voting public would manage today with electricity blackouts due to coal strikes?
About as well as they'll manage with blackouts due to gas shortages.
Last edited by pete75 on 22 Sep 2021, 6:58pm, edited 1 time in total.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
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