Anyone for Gas?

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
pwa
Posts: 17357
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by pwa »

slowster wrote: 25 Oct 2021, 2:40pm
pwa wrote: 25 Oct 2021, 1:37pm Insulate Britain are irrelevant to me because I set about getting as much insulation as possible into our house when we moved in twenty odd years ago.
I think the issue that Insulate Britain is protesting about is relevant to every one of us.

Firstly, because it doesn't matter what we each do if UK housing overall continues to require excessively large and wasteful amounts of energy to heat it. That unnecessary and avoidable higher demand results in higher prices for all, and for many of the most vulnerable it will result in (increasing) fuel poverty. That will result in a return to the bad old days of more elderly people having to choose between heating or eating, and regular reports of deaths each winter/cold snap because they could not afford to heat their homes properly.

Secondly, the scope for people to improve the insulation and air tightness of their homes to the degree that is probably essential in the medium to longer term*, is greatly limited by the nature of our existing housing stock. Much of our housing is of poor quality construction, but more crucially the designs are very difficult/impossible to upgrade to the sort of super energy efficient housing that is likely to be needed, i.e. based on currently available and commercially viable technology. Adding more loft insulation, fitting new/better double glazing etc. is not going to be anywhere near sufficient. Heat is lost from homes like water from a bucket with holes, and to make the performance improvement required every one of those holes has to be identified and effectively sealed. The commercial sector currently cannot deliver that: it does not have suitable technological solutions to offer which can be delivered at scale, installed relatively quickly, and at an acceptable price. Only Government is in a position to make a difference to this, e.g. by funding research and development work by academics and the Building Research Establihment etc. For the last 10 to 20 years Governments have simply not been doing that (certainly not to the extent needed). Hence it is probably in all our interests that Insulate Britain succeeds in persuading the current Government to direct far more resources and effort into the field.

* Essential not just to meet carbon reduction targets, but also to ensure that the UK is much less vulnerable to large increases in the cost of energy and/or reductions in the supply of energy. For example, the UK only gets 5% of its gas from Russia, but much of the rest of Europe depends heavily on Russian gas, and if the price is increased then that would result in the price of other forms of energy increasing across Europe, including the UK.
I appreciate that it is just a matter of personal opinion, but from where I am standing it looks like Insulate Britain is at most an irritant, likely to make some folk dig their heels in and dismiss the need for change. But there are a couple of real levers for positive change. One is the ever increasing presence of Climate Change in mainstream news. The other is the certainty that methane burning is going to get dearer and dearer. I think those two, together, will produce a move towards a greener future. The only questions are how long it will take, and how much it will cost.

I appreciate mjr's assurances about noise from AS heat pumps, and I too wish the makers could get their act together and make them nicer to look at.
User avatar
simonineaston
Posts: 7993
Joined: 9 May 2007, 1:06pm
Location: ...at a cricket ground

Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by simonineaston »

The difference is not really in the detail. The difference is that these guys have said, "Enough's enough" and are prepared to sit down and get in the way, on behalf of us all, whether we want their defiance or not. Well Done Them, I say !! It's not like our very own PM's got the necessary balls to stand up (or sit down!) and do likewise...
I recall trying that tactic back in the '90s, as part of a Greenpeace demo, ie sitting down in front of motorists in order to prevent them driving onto a BP-owned forecourt and jolly scary it was too !! Of course, all that happened back then was the motorists simply drove off and went down the road to Tesco...
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
User avatar
mjr
Posts: 20297
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by mjr »

pwa wrote: 25 Oct 2021, 2:51pm I appreciate that it is just a matter of personal opinion, but from where I am standing it looks like Insulate Britain is at most an irritant, likely to make some folk dig their heels in and dismiss the need for change.
I'm not so sure. Would I have been so quick to take the opportunity of changes to our heating system to increase our insulation otherwise? I think Insulate Britain putting it in the news headlines made me think more about it sooner, even though the target of their protests is more on government, to try to get them to do things like increase the really weak requirement for landlords to achieve an "E" energy rating on the homes they rent out.
I appreciate mjr's assurances about noise from AS heat pumps, and I too wish the makers could get their act together and make them nicer to look at.
That's just the Ecodan here, though. I'm sure people who don't care about their neighbours will still get noisy ones, so I feel regulations should impose noise limits on units sold or used for domestic use.
simonineaston wrote: 25 Oct 2021, 2:54pm Of course, all that happened back then was the motorists simply drove off and went down the road to Tesco...
Yes, we always need to beware of these unintended consequences, in almost all subjects.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
rjb
Posts: 7183
Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 10:25am
Location: Somerset (originally 60/70's Plymouth)

Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by rjb »

francovendee wrote: 19 Oct 2021, 10:15pm Maybe someone like Dyson needs to get into the industry?
I sincerely hope not judging by the reliability of his plastic vacuum cleaners. :cry:
At the last count:- Peugeot 531 pro, Dawes Discovery Tandem, Dawes Kingpin X3, Raleigh 20 stowaway, 1965 Moulton deluxe, Falcon K2 MTB dropped bar tourer, Rudge Bi frame folder, Longstaff trike conversion on a Giant XTC 840 :D
User avatar
mjr
Posts: 20297
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by mjr »

slowster wrote: 25 Oct 2021, 2:40pm Adding more loft insulation, fitting new/better double glazing etc. is not going to be anywhere near sufficient.
I'd like to see the maths on that, if you know them. It seems like insulation has almost no drawback beyond a very short payback period unless you mess it up and cause condensation problems or similar.
Heat is lost from homes like water from a bucket with holes, and to make the performance improvement required every one of those holes has to be identified and effectively sealed.
Here's a question I've had for a while and maybe someone here knows the answer: how does this need to seal things up reconcile with the push for increased ventilation? I know we can in theory do better with heat-exchanging mechanical ventilation units but there seem to be almost none on the UK market and they also require power usage. Given that double-whammy, is an ability to open holes in our home so awful?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 20697
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by Vorpal »

Problems with damp and poor ventilation occur because the heating system, ventilation, & insulation should ideally be designed to go together. Even experts can mess this up, and it's harder to do it right in an older building than a new one.

Older homes were designed to be self ventilating, and filling all the cracks & what have you with insulation will cause problems.

In general, a house needs ventilation between the insulation & the outside, a vapour barrier between the house & the insulation, and ventilation between the house & the outside, in order to control condensation, and provide fresh air to the house.

The control of ventilation can allow the incoming air to be filtered &/or heated before entering the house. A good ventilation system will improve air quality without undoing the benefits of insulation.

There are limits to how many different ways you can do the ventilation outside the insulation, such as in a roof cavity, but there are lots of ways to provide fresh air to a house. Building regulations allow 4 different types of systems, and which is best depends on the type of house, insulation method, location, number of bathrooms, floor plan, heating system, etc.

I did some work on this sort of thing at university, but I've not worked with it since. As a fairly competent DIYer & engineer with some knowledge, I've done some things myself, such as new loft insulation, replacing vapour barrier & insulation in a roof, and upgraded bathroom ventilation. If I needed to insulate & ventilate a house in the UK that had never had insulation before, I'd consult an expert.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Jdsk
Posts: 24478
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by Jdsk »

Vorpal wrote: 25 Oct 2021, 5:35pm Problems with damp and poor ventilation occur because the heating system, ventilation, & insulation should ideally be designed to go together. Even experts can mess this up, and it's harder to do it right in an older building than a new one.

Older homes were designed to be self ventilating, and filling all the cracks & what have you with insulation will cause problems.
Yes.

We renovated and extended our old stone house in England. And fitted a heat recovery system. That allowed us to insulate without restriction from the need for other ventilation.

Jonathan
slowster
Moderator
Posts: 4612
Joined: 7 Jul 2017, 10:37am

Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by slowster »

mjr wrote: 25 Oct 2021, 3:52pm
slowster wrote: 25 Oct 2021, 2:40pm Adding more loft insulation, fitting new/better double glazing etc. is not going to be anywhere near sufficient.
I'd like to see the maths on that, if you know them. It seems like insulation has almost no drawback beyond a very short payback period unless you mess it up and cause condensation problems or similar.
Most of my understanding is based on what I gathered some years ago from reading threads on https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/. I agree that if it's relatively low cost with a short payback time, then there is probably no downside to more insulation of a certain type, but the problem is that the super efficient Passivhaus standard and levels 4, 5 and 6 of the Code for Sustainable Homes cannot be achieved for existing buildings by 'more of the same' using current methods.

In other words, with current standard methods the law of diminishing returns kicks in: the benefit of adding each extra 100mm of loft insulation over and above what Building Regulations require becomes less and less. The point with the leaky bucket is that *all* the leaks have to identified and remediated sufficiently to reduce leakage overall to a low enough level that a home needs almost no heating, i.e. using solar gain and electrical apparatus in the house (cooking, lighting, computers, TV etc.) for heating. Consequently the insulation and air tightness need to be a holistic total package that work together. Probably the only way of realistically achieving this currently is external wall insulation, because the insulation thicknesses required (typically 300mm) are not possible for cavity insulation of existing walls* or internal insulation (unless there is a major technological advance that allows materials with insulation performance like Aerogel to be manufactured cheaply and installed in cavities). External wall insulation per se is relatively easy, straightforward and cheap, but the devil is in the detail. Moving the glazing and doors out into the insulation layer to minimise thermal bridging and using high spec triple glazing and insulated doors is costly but straightforward, but a major problem is that the existing roof will not be large enough to extend over the greater footprint of the externally insulated walls, and excessive heat loss remains at the junction of the roof and top of the walls where the bricks/concrete blocks are exposed. Hence why I think Government funded research and development is crucial to develop, test, evaluate and determine the best solutions.

A key decision that will probably need to be taken is where to concentrate our efforts and money for research and for implementation (subsidies and grants). We cannot replace all UK housing in the medium term, and so upgrading existing buildings is probably the biggest problem - specifically determining which of them to upgrade in the short term and what materials and methods to use. There is no point wasting time and money, at least not for the moment, on outliers like Listed Buildings.

* For an example of what can be done for new builds, as it happens using a 300mm cavity, see this - http://tonyshouse.readinguk.org/. The man who designed and built it is an ordinary - but inspirational - person (a builder by trade). There are plenty of eco- and low energy homes which have had very large amounts of money spent on them to achieve their performance, but they are often one-offs which cannot be delivered commercially at scale (too often they are vanity/dilettante projects for wealthy people or local authorities/public sector bodies who can afford to spend large amounts on small/one-off projects that are not viable commercially or at scale). Tony's House shows what can be achieved using current standard building methods, good design, and good attention to detail in implementation. Arguably the high CO2 consumption to make concrete blocks and bricks means such traditional masonry construction may not be a sustainable option in future, but that is beside the point: whatever the building technology/type, good design and attention to detail in implementation are key.
mjr wrote: 25 Oct 2021, 3:52pm
slowster wrote: 25 Oct 2021, 2:40pm Heat is lost from homes like water from a bucket with holes, and to make the performance improvement required every one of those holes has to be identified and effectively sealed.
Here's a question I've had for a while and maybe someone here knows the answer: how does this need to seal things up reconcile with the push for increased ventilation? I know we can in theory do better with heat-exchanging mechanical ventilation units but there seem to be almost none on the UK market and they also require power usage. Given that double-whammy, is an ability to open holes in our home so awful?
The builders' phrase is 'Build tight, ventilate right'. Mechanical Heat Recovery Ventilation is usually essential in these super efficient homes to remove moisture from cooking, showers etc. Unlike typical heat exchangers which are no more than 50% efficient, MHRV units approach 99% efficiency by counterflow. If memory serves, I think the usual/optimal installation pulls and expels air (and thus moisture) from the kitchen and bathrooms, and inlet air is introduced into the other parts of the home. Internal doors usually have large gaps between the bottom of the door and the floor to balance the air flow.

Image
User avatar
Hellhound
Posts: 756
Joined: 19 May 2021, 7:39am

Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by Hellhound »

I received an email from Scottish Power informing us that our fixed term ends in November and if we don't take up a fixed plan we will go on their variable rate.
We currently pay £119pcm and are £393 in credit on a Dual-fuel Tarriff.The best new offer is £216pcm!
Unless my maths has deteriorated significantly in the last 40 years that adds up to considerably more than the £147 extra per annum the experts were quoting!
Shopping around and non of the comparison sites seem to be showing any deals other than with companies I've not heard of.
User avatar
simonineaston
Posts: 7993
Joined: 9 May 2007, 1:06pm
Location: ...at a cricket ground

Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by simonineaston »

I live in a modern block of flats, designed (roughly) in the last decade and built between 2012 and 2014. All apartments are fitted with domestic condensor gas boilers. It would be intersting to see what alternative methods of heating space & water might work for us here and how the solution might be implimented - I imagine it could involve some sort of communal use.
Last year, as I was wfh, I took more notice of the temp. in my flat than previously and noted that it quickly settled at between 19 and 21 degrees after switch-on week but rarely fell below 19, so this was simply "extra jumper" terratory for me. Once into the new year, the temp. could fall below 19, but not below 18, the benefit I imagine of living in a 3rd floor flat, which is sandwhiched on all sides bar one, by more building. It was that extra degree or so of cold that tempted me to switch the heating on, so that the place stayed in the comfy zone of between 19 and 21. That meant that the boiler was heating water for radiators for just 6 weeks (roughly) of the year.
I compared notes with a friend who lives round the corner in a late nineteenth century, large, end-of-terrace house and he told me that on the coldest days, he saw 17 degrees in some rooms before switching on the central heating. That's the difference I suppose between modern insulation and those enjoyed by the Victorians.
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
User avatar
Hellhound
Posts: 756
Joined: 19 May 2021, 7:39am

Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by Hellhound »

simonineaston wrote: 26 Oct 2021, 10:17am I live in a modern block of flats, designed (roughly) in the last decade and built between 2012 and 2014. All apartments are fitted with domestic condensor gas boilers. It would be intersting to see what alternative methods of heating space & water might work for us here and how the solution might be implimented - I imagine it could involve some sort of communal use.
Last year, as I was wfh, I took more notice of the temp. in my flat than previously and noted that it quickly settled at between 19 and 21 degrees after switch-on week but rarely fell below 19, so this was simply "extra jumper" terratory for me. Once into the new year, the temp. could fall below 19, but not below 18, the benefit I imagine of living in a 3rd floor flat, which is sandwhiched on all sides bar one, by more building. It was that extra degree or so of cold that tempted me to switch the heating on, so that the place stayed in the comfy zone of between 19 and 21. That meant that the boiler was heating water for radiators for just 6 weeks (roughly) of the year.
I compared notes with a friend who lives round the corner in a late nineteenth century, large, end-of-terrace house and he told me that on the coldest days, he saw 17 degrees in some rooms before switching on the central heating. That's the difference I suppose between modern insulation and those enjoyed by the Victorians.
:shock: :shock: :shock:
My Hive Thermostat is set to come on at 24°! Comfortable is 25/26°.
Wearing a jumper indoors makes absolutely no sense at all to me! Why go to the bother of having heating and not using it :shock: :shock:
User avatar
NATURAL ANKLING
Posts: 13780
Joined: 24 Oct 2012, 10:43pm
Location: English Riviera

Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
R2 quote /wrote-
4F568AE4-798A-4AA1-BC07-EE3498D154C5.jpeg
Sorry for the poor editing a glitch in the software.

That was my sarcastic attempt at Prince Williams new earthshot awards :)

I think it's pretty obvious that if you want to save the planet one way of doing this to get everybody to use less energy and less raw materials.

The problem with that is convincing people to do with less as a lot of modern people just tend to try and climb the ladder of I want more.
I'm not forgetting of course people who have nothing and are poor in other countries.
we have seen how developing countries are accelerating their development in life by becoming obese very quickly, much quicker than the western developed world have.
So possibly a good place to start would be in developing countries, education of where development leads, the bad points.
Of course then that comes back to the problem of dragging them up from poverty into a comfortable life.
But with some thought maybe we can come up with the answer.

If the worlds undeveloped countries became developed in the next 10 years where would be be then?
they're all just trying to feed themselves and get through the day dodging bullets!

I'm probably not the only one who thinks that Prince Williams award is just a publicity stunt.
He could've just launched it on his own without looking to media socialite VIPs to fill in some of the gaps.

using less energy is of course a very old idea been around for years.
Maybe even order done recycling, recycling today even though it's been going for something like 25 years is incredibly poor in this country.
Recycling should work, But I see it's had some negative hits by Bojo lately.
He's probably correct in what he said it's just that it's come at the wrong time in the wrong place to the wrong people.
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy - Some day Soon I hope
You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill
Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.
User avatar
simonineaston
Posts: 7993
Joined: 9 May 2007, 1:06pm
Location: ...at a cricket ground

Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by simonineaston »

There's a conceit that we can twiddle the knobs and fine-tune the way the planet reacts to our presence - that we are in control - that we can select the degree of warming that's acceptable... We're about to be disabused of that wholey-human notion.
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
reohn2
Posts: 45143
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by reohn2 »

simonineaston wrote: 26 Oct 2021, 11:56am There's a conceit that we can twiddle the knobs and fine-tune the way the planet reacts to our presence - that we are in control - that we can select the degree of warming that's acceptable... We're about to be disabused of that wholey-human notion.
I agree,we've got away with for far too long,taking continually with a thought for the consequences.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
User avatar
NATURAL ANKLING
Posts: 13780
Joined: 24 Oct 2012, 10:43pm
Location: English Riviera

Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
reohn2 wrote: 26 Oct 2021, 6:57pm
simonineaston wrote: 26 Oct 2021, 11:56am There's a conceit that we can twiddle the knobs and fine-tune the way the planet reacts to our presence - that we are in control - that we can select the degree of warming that's acceptable... We're about to be disabused of that wholey-human notion.
I agree,we've got away with for far too long,taking continually with a thought for the consequences.
Does anyone think that the Uk can make a difference on the world market...........under any gov that is?
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy - Some day Soon I hope
You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill
Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.
Post Reply