Anyone for Gas?

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Ben@Forest
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by Ben@Forest »

simonineaston wrote: 26 Oct 2021, 11:56am There's a conceit that we can twiddle the knobs and fine-tune the way the planet reacts to our presence - that we are in control - that we can select the degree of warming that's acceptable... We're about to be disabused of that wholey-human notion.
According to the Financial Times in Feb 2021 the total cost for Covid vaccinations globally, just in 2021, would be around $35bn and more if there was a need for revaccination (as has happened). That doesn't include the economic costs of the pandemic - just the cost of vaccination. If we were really concerned about the planet and not the human-centric aspect of saving lives surely it could've been better spent on reducing climate change.

(A bit of devil's advocate there - but it's astonishing just how quickly human life becomes the all-absorbing matter of interest - sod climate change, everyone must live).
reohn2
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by reohn2 »

NA
The royal family IMO are a self serving corporate business.
They need to self perpetuate through seeming to be green and all things sweetness and light IMO they're not needed other than to sycophantic royal lovers.
Cynical me?
Never!
-------------------------------------------------------------

The climate situation will get worse because manunkind has prevaricated at a global level for far too long.
It would need colossal changes in every aspect of human existence to make a real change and IMHO humanity isn't willing to give up and change what's needed to make any real effective difference.
Humanity at the level of world governmental influence simply won't do it,previous climate summits have proven it and I've no doubt this latest talking shop(COP?)will be no different.
As for our illustrious leader,well,my thoughts on him and his government are well documented onmhere and elsewhere,if we're looking to world leaders for help we won't get much other than jam tomorrow promises and wringing of hands.

The planet is in the process of shrugging off an irritant it's put up with for too long,the process may take a few decades of degradation and humanity will suffer greatly and numerically as a consequence,but there will be left a remnant to begin again.
Hopefully that remnant will have learned it's lesson and have more respect for it's Mother who never stops giving even until She's exhausted near the point of death and can give no more,though I have my doubts if current trends and stupidity is anything to go off.

I've said this before,humanity is a very clever species but it lacks wisdom,it knows how to,but doesn't know how not to,even to the point of it's own destruction.
As an example,what species in it's right mind stores up enough high tech weaponry to actually destroy the planet it depends on to live?
We are a failure on so many levels as to beggar belief,another example,on a country level our parliament earlier in the week voted to allow the continuation of the pumping of raw sewage into our own rivers and sea around our coast,whilst at the same time we host a climate summit with our own PM leading it! How obscene do we have to get before someone points the finger at the naked emperor?
Last edited by reohn2 on 28 Oct 2021, 8:43am, edited 1 time in total.
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by reohn2 »

NATURAL ANKLING wrote: 26 Oct 2021, 7:23pm Hi,
reohn2 wrote: 26 Oct 2021, 6:57pm
simonineaston wrote: 26 Oct 2021, 11:56am There's a conceit that we can twiddle the knobs and fine-tune the way the planet reacts to our presence - that we are in control - that we can select the degree of warming that's acceptable... We're about to be disabused of that wholey-human notion.
I agree,we've got away with for far too long,taking continually with a thought for the consequences.
Does anyone think that the Uk can make a difference on the world market...........under any gov that is?
Do you?
One thing it can do is mean what it says and say what it means,currently it tells a pack of lies to itself and the world and has done for many a long year.
Last edited by reohn2 on 9 Nov 2021, 6:54pm, edited 2 times in total.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
francovendee
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by francovendee »

I agree with you. Any government (worldwide) that faces re-election have their eyes on the publics willingness to put up with disruption/changes to lifestyle.
Most people want to tackle climate change, far fewer when they realise this means changing their life and not someone else's.
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mjr
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by mjr »

francovendee wrote: 28 Oct 2021, 7:54am I agree with you. Any government (worldwide) that faces re-election have their eyes on the publics willingness to put up with disruption/changes to lifestyle.
Most people want to tackle climate change, far fewer when they realise this means changing their life and not someone else's.
The budget suggests that the current government doesn't want to change someone else's lives and especially not theirs: short haul air duty cut, fuel duty frozen (so real terms cut), incentives to switch off gas and oil paying out less...
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by [XAP]Bob »

It doesn't suggest any such thing... it shouts it from the rooftops.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by reohn2 »

reohn2 wrote: 26 Oct 2021, 7:44pm
NATURAL ANKLING wrote: 26 Oct 2021, 7:23pm Hi,
reohn2 wrote: 26 Oct 2021, 6:57pm

I agree,we've got away with for far too long,taking continually with a thought for the consequences.
Does anyone think that the Uk can make a difference on the world market...........under any gov that is?
Do you?
One thing it can do is mean what it says and say what it means,currently it tells a pack of lies to itself and the world and has done for many a long year.
Pollution?
Our military are the worst offonders:- https://youtu.be/EhPyVslGkTc
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
francovendee
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by francovendee »

I see Rolls Royce are going develop small nuclear power plants. Small, as in the size of two football fields.
I can see some savings if you can make these in a factory which could speed up/cheapen the production cost.
I have really big doubts that these would be any more acceptable to the green lobby. They would surely still have all the dangers and problems of waste disposal as the full size version, albeit on a smaller scale.
A number of these around the country would also pose a further risk to a terrorist attack.
I'm not anti nuclear (just as well as most of our electricity comes from it) but is this a good idea?
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661-Pete
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by 661-Pete »

We have a dilemma.

Our gas CH boiler stopped working last week, for the second time in less than a year. The service guy came round yesterday and fixed it for us (albeit at considerable cost). Fine. His is a firm we've been using for many years now, and I'm inclined to trust them.

But I'd dearly love to get away from gas - for the CH at the very least. So I asked him about heat-pumps. He said, yes, he does install them. But there are all sorts of hidden problems. The CH water comes at a considerably lower temperature than with a gas boiler. All the radiators would need replacing, he told us. And the house would have to be assessed for insulation standard. I know the windows are OK and the loft insulation could be added to if need be (although there's masses of junk in the loft that would have to be shifted).

The main problem is the cavity wall insulation. The house was built in the 1970s before insulation was enforced. We had the polystyrene-balls type of insulation retro-fitted many years ago, but apparently that's not good enough.

I think we may be stuck with gas for quite a while. Unless anyone has a better idea...
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
Jdsk
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by Jdsk »

One way of thinking about it: although an air source heat pump might work better with all of those additional changes that doesn't sound as if it's in your current option appraisal. The question is how good would it be without them, and in comparison to a gas boiler without them.

Jonathan
ANTONISH
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by ANTONISH »

francovendee wrote: 10 Nov 2021, 8:41am I see Rolls Royce are going develop small nuclear power plants. Small, as in the size of two football fields.
I can see some savings if you can make these in a factory which could speed up/cheapen the production cost.
I have really big doubts that these would be any more acceptable to the green lobby. They would surely still have all the dangers and problems of waste disposal as the full size version, albeit on a smaller scale.
A number of these around the country would also pose a further risk to a terrorist attack.
I'm not anti nuclear (just as well as most of our electricity comes from it) but is this a good idea?
I assume that these reactors will be built in groups on a large site - several football pitches.
The area would need to be secure and guarded with good surveillance - I think that's normal for existing nuclear sites.
I think that there are more vulnerable sections of the electrical power system - I'm not making any suggestions.
We need the nuclear if we are going to low carbon - renewables can't do it all - we still have very cold periods in winter where there is little wind and not much sun.
Jdsk
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by Jdsk »

francovendee wrote: 10 Nov 2021, 8:41am I see Rolls Royce are going develop small nuclear power plants. Small, as in the size of two football fields.
I can see some savings if you can make these in a factory which could speed up/cheapen the production cost.
I have really big doubts that these would be any more acceptable to the green lobby. They would surely still have all the dangers and problems of waste disposal as the full size version, albeit on a smaller scale.
A number of these around the country would also pose a further risk to a terrorist attack.
I'm not anti nuclear (just as well as most of our electricity comes from it) but is this a good idea?
We don't know yet. The impact of the construction might be lower than traditional nuclear fission plants. The political acceptability might be higher. Project management will be easier. Delays and cost inflation might be less of a problem with more and smaller plants.

Jonathan

PS: I oscillate on whether more generation from nuclear fission is needed.
pwa
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by pwa »

Jdsk wrote: 10 Nov 2021, 9:03am One way of thinking about it: although an air source heat pump might work better with all of those additional changes that doesn't sound as if it's in your current option appraisal. The question is how good would it be without them, and in comparison to a gas boiler without them.

Jonathan
The problem is that an air source heat pump won't get the central heating water as hot as a gas boiler will. So if you just changed the boiler for an air source heat pump you would have a cold home. You will need more radiator surface, at the very least, and possibly significant insulation work. And some homes may not be suitable for that.
reohn2
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by reohn2 »

francovendee wrote: 10 Nov 2021, 8:41am I see Rolls Royce are going develop small nuclear power plants. Small, as in the size of two football fields.
I can see some savings if you can make these in a factory which could speed up/cheapen the production cost.
I have really big doubts that these would be any more acceptable to the green lobby. They would surely still have all the dangers and problems of waste disposal as the full size version, albeit on a smaller scale.
A number of these around the country would also pose a further risk to a terrorist attack.
I'm not anti nuclear (just as well as most of our electricity comes from it) but is this a good idea?
It's the waste that bothers me the most,I see nuclear as kicking the can down the road for the next generations to sort out the wast when it's time to decommission.

We should IMO be concentrating on solar,wind and more constant and reliable on tap(sorry) availability of hydro power either in rivers,tidal or wave.
A small example:- https://www.whalleyhydro.co.uk/ but the are many other much larger examples around the world.
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mjr
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Re: Anyone for Gas?

Post by mjr »

661-Pete wrote: 10 Nov 2021, 8:58am But I'd dearly love to get away from gas - for the CH at the very least. So I asked him about heat-pumps. He said, yes, he does install them. But there are all sorts of hidden problems. The CH water comes at a considerably lower temperature than with a gas boiler. All the radiators would need replacing, he told us. And the house would have to be assessed for insulation standard. I know the windows are OK and the loft insulation could be added to if need be (although there's masses of junk in the loft that would have to be shifted).

The main problem is the cavity wall insulation. The house was built in the 1970s before insulation was enforced. We had the polystyrene-balls type of insulation retro-fitted many years ago, but apparently that's not good enough.

I think we may be stuck with gas for quite a while. Unless anyone has a better idea...
Those don't sound like hidden problems. They sound overt. I would also say that things like poor insulation are problems that need addressing with any heating system. Doing so will save you money and the planet carbon even with a fossil boiler.

The big problem, I guess, is that heat pumps are currently so expensive that the government grant is needed to make them competitive, and for that, government insists on everything else being up to spec too, to avoid too many "heat pumps wrecked my life" stories, although there are still plenty.

Things will change in March, with the next grants being a flat-rate yes-no as I understand it, rather than the current sliding scale prioritising larger homes and replacing oil more than gas.

In the above situation, I would probably go gas again, ideally one ready for conversion to something less harmful, and definitely with a weather compensation sensor. During its life, I would seek to sort out insulation and any other prep which can be done before a big switch to heat pumping.
pwa wrote: 10 Nov 2021, 9:12am The problem is that an air source heat pump won't get the central heating water as hot as a gas boiler will. So if you just changed the boiler for an air source heat pump you would have a cold home. You will need more radiator surface, at the very least, and possibly significant insulation work. And some homes may not be suitable for that.
That is not quite true. Some heat pumps will get heating water (but not tank water) as hot as an older boiler did but performance will drop below 200% and the cost saving over gas will be gone. The carbon saving remains, of course.

There is some development of high water temperature heat pumps, which should in theory be possible because other countries have low air temperature ones, but I doubt they will become efficient enough to rival mainstream ones and so will be limited to special situations.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
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