Covid Booster. Yes/No? *** The Covid Thread ***

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
thirdcrank
Posts: 36776
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?

Post by thirdcrank »

DevonDamo wrote: 22 Nov 2021, 1:10pm ....
I think the point they're making there is that the vaccine has been judged sufficiently safe for pregnant women. It was one of the questions the data couldn't answer early on.
Thanks. After I'd posted I came to the same conclusion myself.
User avatar
[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19793
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Consultant Appt this morning, and then a jab.

Ended up being really easy once I actually got to a vaccination centre - getting that far was a journey though.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Stradageek
Posts: 1657
Joined: 17 Jan 2011, 1:07pm

Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?

Post by Stradageek »

I've read many scholarly articles (and spoken to every doctor I know) to understand why with every jab (flu, COVID, whatever) my wife has a sore arm for a day and I have three days of full-on flu symptoms.

I now have the answer; my immune reaction is apparently a bit extreme.

And the reason for this?

Well to quote both the scholarly articles and my doctor friends (as well as Patrick Moore) "We just don't know" :(
Jdsk
Posts: 24632
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?

Post by Jdsk »

Stradageek wrote: 23 Nov 2021, 8:28am I've read many scholarly articles (and spoken to every doctor I know) to understand why with every jab (flu, COVID, whatever) my wife has a sore arm for a day and I have three days of full-on flu symptoms.

I now have the answer; my immune reaction is apparently a bit extreme.

And the reason for this?

Well to quote both the scholarly articles and my doctor friends (as well as Patrick Moore) "We just don't know"
There just aren't many studies of the between-individual variation, and "different immune reaction" is more of a rewording than an explanation... unless it's supported by something other than what has to be explained. But it's now possible to measure T cell function and markers of immune pathway activation more easily and cheaply than ever before and that could well produce genuine answers explaining the variation.

Jonathan

PS: Effects on immune function often come up in these forums in discussions of both nutrition and exercise but they tend not to have much in common with the way that clinical immunologists discuss immune function.
User avatar
ncutler
Moderator
Posts: 1473
Joined: 23 Apr 2007, 5:29pm
Location: Forest of Bowland Lancashire
Contact:

Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?

Post by ncutler »

To temporarily return to the original topic of this thread:

Article in today's Graun: Covid patients in ICU now almost all unvaccinated, says Oxford scientist
Prof Sir Andrew Pollard says most of those infected who are fully vaccinated will experience only mild symptoms

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... -scientist

And incidentally, I had a booster and a 'flu jab together about 4 weeks ago. Neither were the slightest problem apart from a very mild soreness at the injection sites, and if anything the 'flu was a tiny bit more irritating.
No pasaran
sizbut
Posts: 212
Joined: 2 Oct 2018, 11:56pm

Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?

Post by sizbut »

Actually, the original topic of the thread was whether, rather than being used for booster shots, it would be more effective to use the same shots to support overseas programmes in order to reduce the risks of other variants arising. But as usual it veered off course...

...and yes, having had my booster and flu shot over the same weekend, the biggest impact was a tender spot interfering with sleep.
thirdcrank
Posts: 36776
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?

Post by thirdcrank »

I've a sneaky suspicion that just having a needle stuck in your arm without an injection would often result in a sore arm at the site of the puncture

That's apart from the sight of the needle :wink:
User avatar
mjr
Posts: 20308
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?

Post by mjr »

sizbut wrote: 23 Nov 2021, 11:17am Actually, the original topic of the thread was whether, rather than being used for booster shots, it would be more effective to use the same shots to support overseas programmes in order to reduce the risks of other variants arising. But as usual it veered off course...
Does anyone know how those overseas programmes are going? I've seen more about the PM's Peppa Pig speech than that recently, despite not looking for it.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
User avatar
[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19793
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?

Post by [XAP]Bob »

sizbut wrote: 23 Nov 2021, 11:17am Actually, the original topic of the thread was whether, rather than being used for booster shots, it would be more effective to use the same shots to support overseas programmes in order to reduce the risks of other variants arising. But as usual it veered off course...

...and yes, having had my booster and flu shot over the same weekend, the biggest impact was a tender spot interfering with sleep.
Yes but do we really think that the government that ordered doses destroyed rather than using them to vaccinate the workers in the vaccination centres would actually keep their promises to overseas aid?

"The BMA has said it is continuing to hear reports of CCGs ‘demanding that vaccines are thrown away’ rather than being given as second doses or to ‘other cohorts’." (This was early in the rollout)...

Apparently we had, after committing to supply 100 million doses overseas (a pitiful amount really), done nothing until at least July this year.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
User avatar
ncutler
Moderator
Posts: 1473
Joined: 23 Apr 2007, 5:29pm
Location: Forest of Bowland Lancashire
Contact:

Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?

Post by ncutler »

I expect everyone will enjoy reading:

Four psychology scholars have developed a four-page consumer guide to spotting COVID-19 conspiracies. [Lewandowsky S, and others. How to spot COVID-19 conspiracy theories. https://www.climatechangecommunication. ... eories.pdf ] It describes these seven traits of conspiratorial thinking, each with a COVID-19-related example:

Contradictory logic
Overriding suspicion
Nefarious intent
Something must be wrong
Persecuted victim
Immune to evidence
Re-interpreting randomness
No pasaran
User avatar
simonineaston
Posts: 8003
Joined: 9 May 2007, 1:06pm
Location: ...at a cricket ground

Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?

Post by simonineaston »

A chum who works for the NHS as a computer programmer and who thinks with Spock-like logic, suggested that those who choose not to avail themselves of the C19 vaccination programme should be treated just like everybody else should they fall ill, but should be charged for their treatment... I pointed out that a lengthy stay in an ICU could turn out v. dear, but he countered by remarking that since the UK is already a credit-rich economy, he could see no reason why the cost of treatment couldn't be the subject of easy, convenient terms, just like, say, leasing a Merc..
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Bonefishblues
Posts: 11009
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?

Post by Bonefishblues »

simonineaston wrote: 24 Nov 2021, 11:02am A chum who works for the NHS as a computer programmer and who thinks with Spock-like logic, suggested that those who choose not to avail themselves of the C19 vaccination programme should be treated just like everybody else should they fall ill, but should be charged for their treatment... I pointed out that a lengthy stay in an ICU could turn out v. dear, but he countered by remarking that since the UK is already a credit-rich economy, he could see no reason why the cost of treatment couldn't be the subject of easy, convenient terms, just like, say, leasing a Merc..
...or obtaining a degree.
slowster
Moderator
Posts: 4629
Joined: 7 Jul 2017, 10:37am

Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?

Post by slowster »

It has been well publicised that the NHS is under great strain and many workers are burnt out or close to it, with increasing shortages of staff in some sectors, and that there is a huge backlog of treatments. What I have not seen is any attempt to quantify the impact of the diversion of NHS resources to Covid away from other treatments, especially those which require an ICU bed, on the mortality of those with other conditions, e.g. cancer. There was the odd human interest article in the media over the past two years in which some cancer patients described how treatment was stopped/delayed, which suggested to me that the reduction in levels of care would result in a significant number of deaths, i.e. statistically measurable.

If that is the case, I would argue that the decision to continue to prioritise Covid patients for ICU beds (because their need is immediate and acute) over cancer patients (whose need for treatment is not so immediate and acute), needs to be reviewed. Although the Covid patient's need is more immediate when viewed in isolation, in many cases the cancer patient's need will be just as great or greater. The fact that the cancer patient's prospects will not deteriorate if their treatment is delayed another month, or two or six, is a red herring if the continuing resource pressures mean that in another month, or two or six, yet more Covid patients with immediate acute need will necessitate delaying the cancer patient's treatment yet again. In other words, the need of patients with chronic life threatening conditions is as important of those with acute immediate life threatening conditions, and the former group should not be sacrificed for the latter group. That is especially the case now that vaccines have been available for many months, with the result that the vast majority of those in ICU beds with Covid are unvaccinated.

I've not yet seen any statements by oncologists or other medical specialists that the shortage of ICU beds and demands on other NHS resources by Covid patients is seriously harming their patients, but if that is the case, then arguably a cap should be placed on the number of ICU beds available for treatment of unvaccinated Covid patients (excluding various groups such as children, adolescents, those who cannot be vaccinated etc.). That should allow ordinary treatments requiring ICU beds to resume at more normal, pre-pandemic levels.
thirdcrank
Posts: 36776
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?

Post by thirdcrank »

It's not restricted to intensive care, although that's obviously resource-intensive. eg I saw something recently that reported an increase in post mortems on decomposed bodies - suggesting an increase in people who had died "home alone," and remained undiscovered.

I presume that the data on excess deaths, when used in conjunction with data on covid-related deaths gives some information, although the different time scales for different illnesses must affect that and will do so for years to come.

When Boris Johnson is replaced, his successor from whichever party, will have good reason to expedite the public inquiry.
Jdsk
Posts: 24632
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?

Post by Jdsk »

slowster wrote: 24 Nov 2021, 11:49am It has been well publicised that the NHS is under great strain and many workers are burnt out or close to it, with increasing shortages of staff in some sectors, and that there is a huge backlog of treatments. What I have not seen is any attempt to quantify the impact of the diversion of NHS resources to Covid away from other treatments, especially those which require an ICU bed, on the mortality of those with other conditions, e.g. cancer. There was the odd human interest article in the media over the past two years in which some cancer patients described how treatment was stopped/delayed, which suggested to me that the reduction in levels of care would result in a significant number of deaths, i.e. statistically measurable.

If that is the case, I would argue that the decision to continue to prioritise Covid patients for ICU beds (because their need is immediate and acute) over cancer patients (whose need for treatment is not so immediate and acute), needs to be reviewed. Although the Covid patient's need is more immediate when viewed in isolation, in many cases the cancer patient's need will be just as great or greater. The fact that the cancer patient's prospects will not deteriorate if their treatment is delayed another month, or two or six, is a red herring if the continuing resource pressures mean that in another month, or two or six, yet more Covid patients with immediate acute need will necessitate delaying the cancer patient's treatment yet again. In other words, the need of patients with chronic life threatening conditions is as important of those with acute immediate life threatening conditions, and the former group should not be sacrificed for the latter group. That is especially the case now that vaccines have been available for many months, with the result that the vast majority of those in ICU beds with Covid are unvaccinated.

I've not yet seen any statements by oncologists or other medical specialists that the shortage of ICU beds and demands on other NHS resources by Covid patients is seriously harming their patients, but if that is the case, then arguably a cap should be placed on the number of ICU beds available for treatment of unvaccinated Covid patients (excluding various groups such as children, adolescents, those who cannot be vaccinated etc.). That should allow ordinary treatments requiring ICU beds to resume at more normal, pre-pandemic levels.
Thanks for posting this. I don't know of that data in oncology and I'll see what's available.

On the issue of the choice whether to have been vaccinated or not should be taken into account in allocation of resources... most ethical codes in healthcare say that it shouldn't... you try to do the best for the patient in front of you (as with smoking). But of course that means that accidents of logistics and perceived urgency rather than cost-effectiveness may end up determining who gets the resources.

Of course for elective care the disruption has been massive. What has often been misrepresented in that discussion is the concept of "recovery" after the outbreak. Waiting lists and waiting times in the UK were at record levels and increasing rapidly before COVID-19 existed. And "recovering" to that state would be totally inadequate to address the need.

Jonathan
Post Reply