Covid Booster. Yes/No? *** The Covid Thread ***

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slowster
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Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?

Post by slowster »

The JVCI is recommending offering 30 million people a booster no sonner than six months after a person's second dose. I presume/hope they had advance sight of the results of the clinical data due to be available very shortly on waning immunity when they took that decision.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58550833

Compare, however, with statements from Professor Pollard, who led the team that created the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine:
Prof Pollard...said decisions on whether to give boosters "should be scientifically driven".

"The time we would need to boost is if we see evidence that there was an increase in hospitalisation - or the next stage after that, which would be people dying - amongst those who are vaccinated," he said.

"And that is not something we are seeing at the moment."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58486526

and from Pascal Soriot and Sir Mene Pangalos of AstraZeneca:
"We do not yet know whether that third dose is clinically needed," they say in the Telegraph.
...
In their article, AstraZeneca chief-executive Pascal Soriot and biopharmaceuticals-research-and-development executive-vice-president Sir Mene Pangalos say giving the most vulnerable, who may not have built up a full immune response from the first two, a third, top-up dose is "sensible".

But any decision to give a third, booster jab "to large swathes of the population", to extend their protection from the first two, must be based on clinical data, which is only a few weeks away from being published.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58159573

My limited understanding is that the real problem is the impossibility/difficulty at scale of identifying the small percentage of people who have failed to develop an immune response following vaccination. I think it is largely (overwhelmingly or even more?) those who make up the numbers of vaccinated people who are still dying of Covid.

In the absence of the ability to identify those in whom the initial vaccinations have not been (fully) effective, some scientists are expecting/hoping that booster shots will make a difference to a significant number of those people. If so, I presume that this should then show up in the mortality and hospitalisation rates within a few months of a mass booster programme starting.
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Mick F
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Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?

Post by Mick F »

I'd like a booster please.

Having been double-vaccinated - second jab in early May - I still caught Covid in August.
Maybe I'm triple immune now?

Give me a third jab, and I'll be quadruple immune.
Mick F. Cornwall
Jdsk
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Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?

Post by Jdsk »

slowster wrote: 23 Sep 2021, 8:19pmCompare, however, with statements from Professor Pollard, who led the team that created the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine
He led many of the trials, and was involved in the vaccine programme but didn't lead the development of this one.

But more importantly for this thread: he has a deep understanding both of infectious diseases in poorer countries and the international aspects of the epidemiology. That has led him and other scientists to their views on the need for a world-wide approach to COVID-19. JCVI doesn't have that remit. And UK politicians have to decide how seriously they take it themselves.

Jonathan
slowster
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Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?

Post by slowster »

Jdsk wrote: 23 Sep 2021, 8:45pm But more importantly for this thread: he has a deep understanding both of infectious diseases in poorer countries and the international aspects of the epidemiology. That has led him and other scientists to their views on the need for a world-wide approach to COVID-19. JCVI doesn't have that remit. And UK politicians have to decide how seriously they take it themselves.
What struck me most were the implications of the following statement:
"The time we would need to boost is if we see evidence that there was an increase in hospitalisation - or the next stage after that, which would be people dying - amongst those who are vaccinated," he said.
That seems to me to be a hugely different approach to basing a decision about a mass booster programme on the results of clinical trials, the results of which I understand are coming through now. He seems to be suggesting not acting on the results of those trials, and instead waiting for the outcome to manifest itself at a population level. I am puzzled by that, because if the clinical trials are a reasonable indicator of what is likely to happen in the general population in the coming months, and they if they do indicate that a mass booster programme would prevent a significant number of deaths, then it would be unjustifiable/unethical to delay a booster programme as he suggests until there is an increase in vaccinated people dying. If that happened, it would take a period of several weeks at least to start and complete the booster programme, during which time many deaths would occur that could have been prevented.
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Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?

Post by PDQ Mobile »

Yet this is a screen shot of the BBC's live feed today.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-58662328

Prof. Sarah Gilbert and others seem to be suggesting a waning potency of the virus.

Some things are strange.
Wales's present high Covid incidence rate amongst them, despite some of the highest vaccination levels anywhere. Higher than most European countries with lower vaccination rates.
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Psamathe
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Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?

Post by Psamathe »

slowster wrote: 23 Sep 2021, 9:49pm
Jdsk wrote: 23 Sep 2021, 8:45pm But more importantly for this thread: he has a deep understanding both of infectious diseases in poorer countries and the international aspects of the epidemiology. That has led him and other scientists to their views on the need for a world-wide approach to COVID-19. JCVI doesn't have that remit. And UK politicians have to decide how seriously they take it themselves.
What struck me most were the implications of the following statement:
"The time we would need to boost is if we see evidence that there was an increase in hospitalisation - or the next stage after that, which would be people dying - amongst those who are vaccinated," he said.
That seems to me to be a hugely different approach to basing a decision about a mass booster programme on the results of clinical trials, the results of which I understand are coming through now. He seems to be suggesting not acting on the results of those trials, and instead waiting for the outcome to manifest itself at a population level. I am puzzled by that, because if the clinical trials are a reasonable indicator of what is likely to happen in the general population in the coming months, and they if they do indicate that a mass booster programme would prevent a significant number of deaths, then it would be unjustifiable/unethical to delay a booster programme as he suggests until there is an increase in vaccinated people dying. If that happened, it would take a period of several weeks at least to start and complete the booster programme, during which time many deaths would occur that could have been prevented.
My thought (not knowledge) is he may be thinking like the Gov. was when it changed the interval between injections from 4 to 12 weeks - better to have a lot of people with a fair degree of immunity than a few with max. immunity. Maybe same applies on a world basis if we want to beat the pandemic?

Ian
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Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?

Post by Phileas »

Is there a global shortage of Pfizer/Moderna jabs? I always thought it was the AZ (and Novavax) vaccine poorer countries needed which is surely the biggest bottleneck at the moment.

As for boosters, if antibody levels are increased in the population Covid transmission will presumably decline which should reduce hospitalisations and other disruptions so it’s not all about deaths.

Although there is clearly a political dimension in as much as the government hopes for a another vaccine bounce, they can claim to be following the advice of their chief scientific advisors.
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Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?

Post by Syd »

Mrs Syd and I both had our second doses in early March.

I’m booked in next Tuesday, and Mrs Sid on Thursday, for boosters.
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Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?

Post by rjb »

Mrs Rjb is booked in for her booster. She has been very careful with covid avoidance due to radio and chemotherapy as no one has been able to give a view on whether it's compromised the initial vaccines. I'm due for mine in a month. :D

Youngest daughter has had a double dose of the Novovax vaccine in a trial. This is not yet approved so she has a problem as she needs to travel abroad for work. It could mean she will have to have a double dose of Pfizer to obtain a vaccine passport. She could soon be quadrupeld vaccinated. :shock:

https://www.itv.com/news/2021-09-18/nov ... -to-travel
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?

Post by [XAP]Bob »

You can get a private vaccine specific antibody test.

I paid ~£100 for mine, but that’s because I really wanted IGG and IGM split out for medical reasons. The ones that lump them together were substantially cheaper.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Psamathe
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Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?

Post by Psamathe »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 24 Sep 2021, 11:55am You can get a private vaccine specific antibody test.

I paid ~£100 for mine, but that’s because I really wanted IGG and IGM split out for medical reasons. The ones that lump them together were substantially cheaper.
I was checking some time back and Lloyds pharmacy were around £50 and a private infectious diseases consultant I'm "seeing" is £34 (I've not taken either/any so just passing on what I've seen). Though these would be the basic antibody tests (not the IGG & IGM [XAP]Bob had).

I suspect if the NHS were negotiating/buying they'd cost next to nothing. Some time back I found the costs of a private HIV test vs what the NHS pay and it's a massive difference. So I'm surprised NHS isn't offering these C-19 antibody tests (at least for vulnerable to give some reassurance to return to a more normal life rather than have some scared to go out and remaining in self-isolation despite being vaccinated).

Ian
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?

Post by [XAP]Bob »

The NHS antibody test (which I also had) isn't looking for the antibodies which are stimulated for the vaccines, but for ones that you would generate after infection. (the vaccine targets one specific protein, the virus presents many routes for the immune system to respond to)
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
gbnz
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Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?

Post by gbnz »

Should Covid now be ignored? Or time to start taking it seriously again?

Have to admit that whilst I've never been in a panic about Covid, I'd always taken "precautions". But aware that as a Radio 4 listener, there was a good chance that I'd still be under the impression the world was coming to an end due to Covid, months after everyone else had forgotten about it. Is it time to forget about it?
Psamathe
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Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?

Post by Psamathe »

gbnz wrote: 18 Oct 2021, 1:29pm Should Covid now be ignored? Or time to start taking it seriously again?

Have to admit that whilst I've never been in a panic about Covid, I'd always taken "precautions". But aware that as a Radio 4 listener, there was a good chance that I'd still be under the impression the world was coming to an end due to Covid, months after everyone else had forgotten about it. Is it time to forget about it?
No (we should NOT be ignoring it). Despite our [UK] political guidance I think many are still taking it seriously (fortunately) e.g. Few visits I've made to supermarkets/shop many are still wearing masks (despite them no longer being required), shops still have hand sanitisers available and people are using them, etc.

Ian
Psamathe
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Re: Covid Booster. Yes/No?

Post by Psamathe »

Re original question I raised about boosters, given Gov. guidance is for some to receive boosters, if you happen to be in a group where a booster is recommended and you don't take the booster would your "Covid Vaccination Status" become invalid e.g. for travel or for entry into nightclub in Scotland?

Ian
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