Ken Loach on the state of the Labour Party

[661-Pete]

You keep thinking the Green Party stands a cat in hell's chance on it's own,but in the present climate all it will do is split the vote and play into the hands of the Tory establishment as they laugh all the way to their favourite place,the bank!

Ahem.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... ts-come-in

The Green party, in jubilant mood after winning 14.8% in its best result in a national poll, despite having lost the lead it held early on and dropping about 13 points since April, was confident of becoming a kingmaker in the upcoming coalition talks.

"It couldn't happen here", I hear someone say? Well, OK, you're probably right, what with FPTP it couldn't - we're left with the very able Caroline but no-one else to boost the representation....

What will it take to force through an electoral system change? Armed insurrection?

[al_yrpal]

What will it take to force through an electoral system change? Armed insurrection?

Dont think so because last time we voted on it it got rejected...

Al

[Carlton green]

What will it take to force through an electoral system change? Armed insurrection?

Dont think so because last time we voted on it it got rejected...

Yep, it didn’t get accepted last time. IIRC the two main parties (Conservative and Labour) ganged-up and made sure of that and now both of them have the results of their actions. By not supporting the change Labour - as oft’ seems to be the case - shot itself in the foot.

[reohn2]

What will it take to force through an electoral system change? Armed insurrection?

Dont think so because last time we voted on it it got rejected...

Yep, it didn’t get accepted last time. IIRC the two main parties (Conservative and Labour) ganged-up and made sure of that and now both of them have the results of their actions. By not supporting the change Labour - as oft’ seems to be the case - shot itself in the foot.

Agreed.
We won't get change as long apathy of politics reigns,it's what the Tories hope for,and TBH under Starmer to a lesser extent Labour too.
Whatever your feelings about Corbyn,the young saw him as someone worth his salt,an honest and honourable man willing to change things for the better.
IMHO the UK missed it's chance and we got the worst government in living memory along with the worst possible Brexit!

[Mike Sales]

I have just stumbled across a little book, my copy of Aneurin Bevan's Why Not Trust The Tories?, writing as Celticus in 1944.
You may remember that he called the Tories "lower than vermin."

[reohn2]

You keep thinking the Green Party stands a cat in hell's chance on it's own,but in the present climate all it will do is split the vote and play into the hands of the Tory establishment as they laugh all the way to their favourite place,the bank!

Ahem.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... ts-come-in

The Green party, in jubilant mood after winning 14.8% in its best result in a national poll, despite having lost the lead it held early on and dropping about 13 points since April, was confident of becoming a kingmaker in the upcoming coalition talks.

"It couldn't happen here", I hear someone say? Well, OK, you're probably right, what with FPTP it couldn't - we're left with the very able Caroline but no-one else to boost the representation....

As I posted above it ain't going to happen,there's just not enough support for the green agenda,yes it's gathering pace but it'll never be a force to be reckoned with in UK politics.
That doesn't mean to say it's useless,it's there to point to the way we should be thinking about how we live but too many don't wish to change,the fuel panic has shown that in only three days.

Please don't take this as criticism,I'm merely telling it like it is in the present political climate.

What will it take to force through an electoral system change? Armed insurrection?

Nothing short of revolution will change anything in the UK political system but it would need things to get a LOT worse for there to be anything approaching real revolution.
The UK political system(like the US) is rank and corrupt to the core politicians being bought and sold by millionaires and billionaires.
IMHO the incorruptable has just been booted out of the Labour party for challenging the status quo!

[reohn2]

I have just stumbled across a little book, my copy of Aneurin Bevan's Why Not Trust The Tories?, writing as Celticus in 1944.
You may remember that he called the Tories "lower than vermin."

He was right!

[JohnW]

I have just stumbled across a little book, my copy of Aneurin Bevan's Why Not Trust The Tories?, writing as Celticus in 1944.
You may remember that he called the Tories "lower than vermin."

He was right!

Well actually - don't we all know some Tories? - are they all "lower than vermin"?
I honestly cannot say they are - there are those that I know are not - they're decent people.
However, the English ruling class (extreme Tories?), by their actions, do seem to be.
I've known Tory activists/politicians who certainly are.
We know them by their actions.
In many case it can take almost a generation before the full appalling consequences become evident.
I cite Thatcher - or the manipulating grandees that put it there and are benefiting even now.
You've referred to Bevan's "Why Not Trust The Tories?" ............experience of their rule since the war asks : "Why should we?"

[reohn2]

JohnW
The Tory party is for itself at the expense of the country(which is the people)we see it time and again,they wish to control and manipulate for their own gain.
I've no doubt some Tories are quite decent people to a point but they are either,blind choosing not to see what goes on before their eyes or are complicit in the evil that is the Tory machine.
It was because of such evil the Labout movement was formed,we should never forget that.
YVMV mine won't

[Mick F]

The problem with Left vs Right, is that people generally are unwilling to see the other's point of view.

Daily Mail vs Daily Mirror for instance.
Tories buy the Mail, and Labourites buy the Mirror ................. generally true.

The trouble is, that people only buy the newspaper that agrees with their political outlook. If they bought the opposite one for a month, they might just possibly see the other side of things ................ they wouldn't buy the "wrong" newspaper of course!

Never the twain shall meet eh?

[Jdsk]

The problem with Left vs Right, is that people generally are unwilling to see the other's point of view.

Daily Mail vs Daily Mirror for instance.
Tories buy the Mail, and Labourites buy the Mirror ................. generally true.

The trouble is, that people only buy the newspaper that agrees with their political outlook. If they bought the opposite one for a month, they might just possibly see the other side of things ................ they wouldn't buy the "wrong" newspaper of course!

Never the twain shall meet eh?

It's clear that many who post here on political issues do read sources with which they generally disagree.

A much bigger problem is posters who won't progress an argument with people with whom they disagree and then fall back to repetition and prepared positions or to abuse.

Disagreement isn't the problem and confirmation bias does occur but neither of those do as much harm in online forums as the rejection of rationality.

Jonathan

[Stevek76]

You keep thinking the Green Party stands a cat in hell's chance on it's own,but in the present climate all it will do is split the vote and play into the hands of the Tory establishment as they laugh all the way to their favourite place,the bank!

Vote splitting is on labour really (ignoring for a moment that not all grn & ld switch to lab rather than con if forced). If they solidly backed PR, they'd stop that. If they're thinking votes will consolidate like they did in 2017 and 2019 I think they may be disappointed.

[reohn2]

The problem with Left vs Right, is that people generally are unwilling to see the other's point of view.

Daily Mail vs Daily Mirror for instance.
Tories buy the Mail, and Labourites buy the Mirror ................. generally true.

The trouble is, that people only buy the newspaper that agrees with their political outlook. If they bought the opposite one for a month, they might just possibly see the other side of things ................ they wouldn't buy the "wrong" newspaper of course!

Never the twain shall meet eh?

I don't read either,but I have eyes in my head that's seen what the Tories have done and I have a brain behind those eyes to evaluate why the Tories do what they do,and I conclude they're evil because they are only interested in their own profit.
Oh,yes some will perform seemingly altrustic acts,but behind them are selfcenteredness based on capitalism,and the absolute evil of neolibralist capitalism.
KL is right,when these people call me names(which I have been on these boards in the past).wear it as a badge of honour because they fear the truth,it's why so many lies were poured out on the charachter assination of Jeremy Corbyn at the last GE,these vermin fear him because he was truthful and honourable and couldn't be bought,unlike so many other have been in the Labour party who are part of the problem and not the solution to it.
I make no excuses for my political stance and I'm proud to be called leftwing.

One only need look at the abosolute and utter mess this country is in presently to realise how evil the Tories are whether it be under Thatcher,Blair,Cameron,May or the present Clownatic in comand,Johnson,all millionaires(or about to become),funded by millionaires and billionaires for their own monetary gain and all part of a system designed to keep things that way,and get away with a much evil and money as they can.

No one will convince me otherwise

[JohnW]

JohnW
The Tory party is for itself at the expense of the country(which is the people)we see it time and again,they wish to control and manipulate for their own gain.
I've no doubt some Tories are quite decent people to a point but they are either,blind choosing not to see what goes on before their eyes or are complicit in the evil that is the Tory machine.
It was because of such evil the Labour movement was formed,we should never forget that.
YVMV mine won't

Yes John - quite so.
The press (which I think of as the Tory press) doesn't help humanity though, does it?
The Murdoch/Thatcher combine was the cause of, and reason for so many of the problems we're suffering today.
Tell you what - I'd rather have had Theresa May than Boris!

(YVMV.......?)
(edited once for spelling!)

[reohn2]

You keep thinking the Green Party stands a cat in hell's chance on it's own,but in the present climate all it will do is split the vote and play into the hands of the Tory establishment as they laugh all the way to their favourite place,the bank!

Vote splitting is on labour really (ignoring for a moment that not all grn & ld switch to lab rather than con if forced). If they solidly backed PR, they'd stop that. If they're thinking votes will consolidate like they did in 2017 and 2019 I think they may be disappointed.

I agree,Tory voters overwhelmingly don't deviate,it's why GE's are settled on less than 200,000 swing voters to Tory from Labour,LD and oher minor parties.
The system is rigged,what's needed is a PR system to make the lazy MP's work at their job the people have entrusted them with.