Ken Loach on the state of the Labour Party

[reohn2]

Yes John - quite so.
The press (which I think of as the Tory press) doesn't help humanity though, does it?

It's why I say nothing short of a revolution will change anything in UK politics,money doesn't just talk,it screams obscenities in the face of the poor and ordinary working wo/man.

(YVMV.......?)

Sorry:- Your View May Vary

[al_yrpal]

I believe there is plenty of scope for an alternative to the Torys. Isnt it sad that the opposition cant get its act together. That fact alone doesnt bode well for Labours ability to run the UK.

Al

[Oldjohnw]

I was a member of and supporter of Trade Unions all my working life. But I have a huge problem with a handful of union leaders being able to cast millions of votes, twisting a vote result, as in the PR vote.

[Carlton green]

What will it take to force through an electoral system change? Armed insurrection?

Dont think so because last time we voted on it it got rejected...

Yep, it didn’t get accepted last time. IIRC the two main parties (Conservative and Labour) ganged-up and made sure of that and now both of them have the results of their actions. By not supporting the change Labour - as oft’ seems to be the case - shot itself in the foot.

Agreed.
We won't get change as long apathy of politics reigns,it's what the Tories hope for,and TBH under Starmer to a lesser extent Labour too.
Whatever your feelings about Corbyn,the young saw him as someone worth his salt,an honest and honourable man willing to change things for the better.
IMHO the UK missed it's chance and we got the worst government in living memory along with the worst possible Brexit!

If I were a betting man and if it were possible to accurately conclude the result then I’d wager that with PR in place there would have been no referendum. It would never have got past a Parliament made of more Liberal and Labour MP’s. The Labour Party we’re greedy fools to stand in the way of PR and were only interested in two party politics, and as far as I can see that’s still the case.

The bulk of the electorate in this country like centre ground politicians and under PR that’s who they’d have a chance to vote for, no surprise that the Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum parties didn’t like it.

[Mike Sales]

The bulk of the electorate in this country like centre ground politicians and under PR that’s who they’d have a chance to vote for, no surprise that the Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum parties didn’t like it.

Anybody who would like to vote for a smaller party, the Greens for instance, is told, with truth, that they are throwing their vote away, so they vote for the least bad of the two alternatives.

[reohn2]

Yep, it didn’t get accepted last time. IIRC the two main parties (Conservative and Labour) ganged-up and made sure of that and now both of them have the results of their actions. By not supporting the change Labour - as oft’ seems to be the case - shot itself in the foot.

Agreed.
We won't get change as long apathy of politics reigns,it's what the Tories hope for,and TBH under Starmer to a lesser extent Labour too.
Whatever your feelings about Corbyn,the young saw him as someone worth his salt,an honest and honourable man willing to change things for the better.
IMHO the UK missed it's chance and we got the worst government in living memory along with the worst possible Brexit!

If I were a betting man and if it were possible to accurately conclude the result then I’d wager that with PR in place there would have been no referendum. It would never have got past a Parliament made of more Liberal and Labour MP’s. The Labour Party we’re greedy fools to stand in the way of PR and were only interested in two party politics, and as far as I can see that’s still the case.

The bulk of the electorate in this country like centre ground politicians and under PR that’s who they’d have a chance to vote for, no surprise that the Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum parties didn’t like it.

Agreed!

As much as I'm leftwing I'm also a democrat,the UK political system is demockracy rather than democracy.

[reohn2]

I believe there is plenty of scope for an alternative to the Torys. Isnt it sad that the opposition cant get its act together. That fact alone doesnt bode well for Labours ability to run the UK.

Al

Rubbish!
Under the present system is run and operated by money big money from big business,media moguls and oligachs pouring money into whichever party dances to their tune,democracy is a farce in UK politricks!

[PH]

The Labour Party we’re greedy fools to stand in the way of PR and were only interested in two party politics, and as far as I can see that’s still the case.

When was this?
If you're referring to the referendum on changing the voting system to an Alternative Vote, wouldn't that have favored the bigger parties? I'm not an expert, but that was the conclusion of the 90's report commissioned by the Labour Party.
Of course you may be going back further, a referendum on PR was in labours 97 manifesto, talked the talk then spent all the time commissioning reports...

[Jdsk]

The Labour Party we’re greedy fools to stand in the way of PR and were only interested in two party politics, and as far as I can see that’s still the case.

When was this?
If you're referring to the referendum on changing the voting system to an Alternative Vote, wouldn't that have favored the bigger parties? I'm not an expert, but that was the conclusion of the 90's report commissioned by the Labour Party.
Of course you may be going back further, a referendum on PR was in labours 97 manifesto, talked the talk then spent all the time commissioning reports...

Which report do you mean, please?

The 1993 report from the Plant Commission recommended SV for the election of MPs. The 1997 report from the Jenkins Commission recommended AV+. The referendum was on a change to AV.

Thanks

Jonathan

[PH]

Which report do you mean, please?

As I'm bored I Googled it.
I wasn't aware, or had forgotten, the report commissioned when in opposition, so I was referring to the Jenkins one, in which Jenkins referred to AV as:
AV on its own suffers from a stark objection. It offers little prospect of a move towards greater proportionality, and in some circumstances, and those the ones which certainly prevailed at the last election and may well do so for at least the next one, it is even less proportional than FPTP. (1998)
That's the version of AV on offer in the referendum.
Even Clegg didn't like it, referring to it as a miserable compromise (Or words to that effect, you'll have to find the quote yourself if you're that interested.)
I recall the Labour Party being split on AV in the referendum, well I recall Ed Miliband being keen and some people opposing him, that's politics.

[Jdsk]

Thanks.

The Jenkins Commission was established by the Government, not the Labour Party.

Jonathan

[PH]

Thanks.

The Jenkins Commission was established by the Government, not the Labour Party.

Jonathan

You're right, if a little pedantic.
The commitment was in the Labour Party manifesto, the commission was set up by the Labour Government.

[al_yrpal]

I believe there is plenty of scope for an alternative to the Torys. Isnt it sad that the opposition cant get its act together. That fact alone doesnt bode well for Labours ability to run the UK.

Al

Rubbish!
Under the present system is run and operated by money big money from big business,media moguls and oligachs pouring money into whichever party dances to their tune,democracy is a farce in UK politricks!

Thats rubbish, but if you live in an echo chamber, its no wonder you hold such views. Sounds just like the sort of left wing rot spouted in the Valleys during the 70s. There are honest conviction politicians in every political party. Pressure groups exist and try to pull the strings in all political parties. If you want untainted politics head for N Korea or China. See how you get on with that.

Al

[PH]

There are honest conviction politicians in every political party.

Prior to the 2019 election, every prospective conservative MP was required to pledge support for Boris's Brexit plan.
Not much honest conviction there.

[reohn2]

I believe there is plenty of scope for an alternative to the Torys. Isnt it sad that the opposition cant get its act together. That fact alone doesnt bode well for Labours ability to run the UK.

Al

Rubbish!
Under the present system is run and operated by money big money from big business,media moguls and oligachs pouring money into whichever party dances to their tune,democracy is a farce in UK politricks!

Thats rubbish, but if you live in an echo chamber, its no wonder you hold such views. Sounds just like the sort of left wing rot spouted in the Valleys during the 70s.

Come back when you've checked the facts on who finances the Tory party,google it and eat your words pal.

There are honest conviction politicians in every political party

Of that I've no doubt,it's just that they're in much smaller numbers in the Tory party.

Pressure groups exist and try to pull the strings in all political parties

They've certainly been pulling BoJo's and the Tories strings for some time.

. If you want untainted politics head for N Korea or China. See how you get on with that.

Al

I wondered how long before NK and China would come into it,you're predictably righwing Al.

BTW you forgot to mention Venezuela or your usual claim that socialism would have us all wearing Mao suits