How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

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reohn2
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How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by reohn2 »

Answers on a postcard to PO13,or simply post your answers below.
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661-Pete
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by 661-Pete »

You should be asking the 17,410,742 people who did just that on 23 June 2016. Not the rest of us. :)
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reohn2
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by reohn2 »

661-Pete wrote: 13 Oct 2021, 12:04pm You should be asking the 17,410,742 people who did just that on 23 June 2016. Not the rest of us. :)
I'm including them too if they're reading.
And I strongly suspect many of those are now if not publicly but at least privately wishing they hadn't been so easily duped by big red buses ridden by liars and shysters.

But now we're in this almighty mess does anyone know a way out?
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simonineaston
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by simonineaston »

A. vote for a different government.
S
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Paulatic
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by Paulatic »

Living in Scotland I see a vote for Independence as my answer.
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axel_knutt
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by axel_knutt »

I don't think there will be any stopping it for a very long while. The referendum has split the population along entirely different lines to the traditional party system, and neither party want's to risk being seen as anti-democratic by opposing Brexit. Leavers are going to be in no hurry to admit they're wrong, and covid gives them all the ammunition they need for denial. Any opportunity to re-join won't be on anything like as favourable terms as we had, after all, the first question Brussels will ask is "what's to stop it all happening again?", and the answer is nothing at all unless they impose a reason. If Tory/Labour politics is abandoned for new Brexit/EU parties, we could be lumbered with a NI-style sectarian system that endures indefinitely. Another risk is the continued undermining of democracy that BoJo has started.
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reohn2
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by reohn2 »

simonineaston wrote: 13 Oct 2021, 12:17pm A. vote for a different government.
Well the country has been duped four times in a decade and hasn't so far twigged what's happening yet,plus we have another possibly three years of this kind of madness before it gets another chance of being duped again.

My concern is that when one of the poorest constituencies in the country(Leigh) votes Tory for the first time in it's history and has been held by Labour for a hundred years there's something seriously wrong.
I know people will say it's all because of Corbyn but it isn't that simple.
Wigan(of which Leigh is part and shares the same council)voted 64% leave and isn't much better off than Leigh(referendum figures for just Leigh don't seem to be available)but I'm assuming they'll be similar.
People were,if it isn't immediately obvious to some,sold a huge pack of lies which they fell for hook line and sinker,sold to them by a corrupt and very devious party,financed by a LOT of dirty money from a LOT of disreputable sources,which was for means to their own ends,one of which was that if the UK left then those sources could continue their money laundering in the offshore accounts the UK is complicit in.Whereas if the UK remained it would have to begin dismantling them under up and coming EU business trading laws.

So I suppose the question is,how do you beat the big money wo/men who control the Tory Party,or how to cut off the head of the Gorgon?
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simonineaston
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by simonineaston »

Well the country has been duped four times in a decade and hasn't so far twigged what's happening yet,plus we have another possibly three years of this kind of madness before it gets another chance of being duped again.
True. However, under the current arrangments, voting for different representatives is about all we can do, legitimately, to change the way we're represented. I'm as frustrated as the next cyclist... however, we're stuck with a system that is highly flawed - at least from a thinking cyclist's pov - and apparently even more so, now that online media has taken root firmly in the way folks are tempted into voting. See Dom Cummings' lastest ranting on the subject of the way the last election was run & won and specifically on the cynical way they he alledges the Eire border issue was considered. If true, it would seem we're being well & truly played, in an unpleasant and highly manipulative manner.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by Tangled Metal »

The EU is no paragon if virtue with regards to dodgy money and tax schemes. Iirc some of the most notorious, legal schemes involves Netherlands or Ireland. I doubt amazon could operate quite so profitably without certain eu nations and their tax wheezes. That's before you get to outright illegality. I think there was a bank that got in trouble in USA due to its European activities a few years back. Shysters and crooks are everywhere not just the UK.

Don't get me on to state aid against eu rules. According to an EU report UK had the best record in my breaching the state aid rules. Germany was one of the worst of the big economies for breaking those rules.

The other question is did people really vote leave because of the lies on the bus. I think if people talked about that it was a extra justification for leaving. I think the real issue was the disconnect with the politicians in Westminster parties. All main party leadership supported remain. What a great way to stick it to them, right? Since then boris was seen as that candidate for the right and Corbyn for the left. Imho the big issue is that a minority issue to the public, membership of the EU, was brought mainstream by the disconnect with political elites.

Right now there's no real political leader in UK politics. No opposition or government doing a good job of things. Nobody is really winning in the UK.

As to Scottish independence, wasn't it the SNP's economic guru who said independence would be like Brexit but 10 times worse? If that's the Scottish way out you're in it for the long game that's for sure. A big choice braveheart!
reohn2
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by reohn2 »

TM
Have you got any link to your claims about the EU money laundering?
BTW I'm not saying the EU is anywhere near stain free

Whilst I agree about there being no leaders in UK politricks of what's on offer presently I'll take Starmer simply coz he's the best of a bad bunch IMHO.

All that said it seems you don't give the UK much hope for the future.
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francovendee
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by francovendee »

I don't think it's possible, the media are part of the lies and the continuing support for the Tory party in it's present form.
When the Red Wall turns blue you realise how powerful this indoctrination has become. After years of cuts and poverty, to vote for the government that imposed these cuts seems contrary to sensible belief.
For sure there was anti Corbyn effect but how did people think voting as they did would improve things?
The government has very powerful friends who must somehow be gaining from all this.
Each day I listen to BBC news and hear of yet another cock up that would once have ended an MP's time as a cabinet member if not their political career. Not with this lot, they hang on and if they do resign another job will be found for them after a period on the back bench. Alternatively they'll be given a peerage.
I don't think the view here is inline with the view of the wider public. :(
Ben@Forest
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by Ben@Forest »

Tangled Metal wrote: 13 Oct 2021, 1:22pm ...I think the real issue was the disconnect with the politicians in Westminster parties. All main party leadership supported remain.....
No, Corbyn didn't. He was and presumably still is a Eurosceptic. His campaigning to stay in the EU was lukewarm at best and he refused to join other political leaders on platforms to jointly promote the EU. After the Brexit vote he refused to take part in cross-party talks to try to stop Brexit - although by that time hugely conscious that many Labour voting areas had voted to leave.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck ... xit-stance
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/0 ... 70992.html
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by [XAP]Bob »

reohn2 wrote: 13 Oct 2021, 12:51pm
simonineaston wrote: 13 Oct 2021, 12:17pm A. vote for a different government.
So I suppose the question is,how do you beat the big money wo/men who control the Tory Party,or how to cut off the head of the Gorgon?
The only way forward I can see is an early tory election call by the buffoon starting a trade war to try and win some popular opinion and get another 5 years.
Then a true progressive alliance forming with the sole aim of outing the tories and putting in place a better electoral system. At the same time they could look at closer alignment on a number of key goods to reduce the Brexit bureaucracy - but the key aim is electoral reform.

At the moment it's far too easy, given sufficient funds, to target small groups of a people in marginal constituencies and gain complete power with a minority of support.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Ben@Forest
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by Ben@Forest »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 13 Oct 2021, 2:10pm At the moment it's far too easy, given sufficient funds, to target small groups of a people in marginal constituencies and gain complete power with a minority of support.
Far too easy? Since WW2 only twice has a 'minority of support' won a GE, 1951 when Conservatives got 0.8% less votes but more seats than Labour and 1974 when Labour got more seats despite the Conservatives getting 0.7% more votes

And of course PR won't necessarily solve that, currently in Germany there's no guarantee that the SPD who got most votes (25.7%) will be in government. It's possible that the CDU (24.1%) may be able to form the necessary coalition, both parties need to form three-party coalitions and it's already looking tough. After the last GE the negotiations took more than 6 months.
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by Oldjohnw »

simonineaston wrote: 13 Oct 2021, 12:17pm A. vote for a different government.
How can we do that?
John
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