How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

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Ben@Forest
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by Ben@Forest »

Psamathe wrote: 15 Oct 2021, 11:42am I think some of the underlying issues come from UK attitude to business and wealth and protections of citizens. Much of the UK seems to be all about money, money, money, business, profits, etc.. We tend more to the US "greed is good" attitudes. So for me a lot about the EU is standing up to business and "profit at any cost" and acting to put in place protections for citizens e.g. banning damaging chemicals or e.g. privacy protections. These are less valued by some in the UK so seen as less of a positive and presented as hindrances (for profits for those with more money than they could ever spend).
I think one of the larger 'unseen' drivers for the EU for many mainland European citizens is not having absolute confidence in their own democratic structures. I was last in Germany in May 2019 when the whole Brexit shebang was rudderless (Theresa May was about to resign). I was on a course with a mix of different nationalities and there was some incomprehension and bemusement about why it was all happening; however the two most interesting reactions were from a Polish doctor and a Catalonian (in his own eyes definitely not Spanish) who worked in logistics.

They both said pretty much the same thing - understanding why the British might want to leave the EU (and the Catalonian was of course admiring of the UK government to put things to referenda - after all the Spanish won't) but they preferred to see the UK stay in the EU - why? - because the UK had a long-term stable democracy they trusted. I know there will be those who snort at that, but look at the progress of almost continuous UK parliamentary democracy compared to most European states and there is a point.

And Germany itself is a case in point, it is strong, democratic and dependable but the Hitlerzeit legacy is still strong, not helped, I suppose, by the fact that a third of the country was still a dictatorship till 1989. The Germans were happy to let the French take the lead in the early days of the European project - but now they can't pretend to be economic equals and Germany is going to have to show more leadership - and not just in their own self-interest.
PDQ Mobile
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by PDQ Mobile »

Ben@Forest wrote: 15 Oct 2021, 10:33am
[XAP]Bob wrote: 15 Oct 2021, 10:08am
PDQ Mobile wrote: 14 Oct 2021, 10:12pm If Clegg had left the coalition earlier then a GE would have resulted.
That is the ultimate power of coalition. He was afraid to use it.
But he should have done. IMV.
Would it - IIRC he could have suggested a coalition with labour, and not bothered with a GE at all (a vote of no confidence followed by an election entirely within parliament of a new government).
Clegg couldn't leave the coalition earlier, that was the whole point of the Fixed Terms Parliament Act - neither side could.

And in 2010 a Lab/Lib coalition would also have needed the SNP, PC and Greens in the coalition and still have been a minority government.
Of course he could have left.
If he had resigned because he found the direction the "greenest Govt ever" was taking bore no resemblance to that media blab.
Or other unpalatable stuff like blaming the EU for the home introduced severe austerity.
He could have simply resigned.

Or if he himself had been found guilty of some corrupt act, expenses say, then he would have had to resign.

It's a Govt and an elected Parliament not a forced labour camp.

It would have precipitated another election.
Ben@Forest
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by Ben@Forest »

PDQ Mobile wrote: 15 Oct 2021, 3:06pm Of course he could have left.
If he had resigned because he found the direction the "greenest Govt ever" was taking bore no resemblance to that media blab.
Or other unpalatable stuff like blaming the EU for the home introduced severe austerity.
He could have simply resigned.

Or if he himself had been found guilty of some corrupt act, expenses say, then he would have had to resign.

It's a Govt and an elected Parliament not a forced labour camp.

It would have precipitated another election.
The coalition agreement was not related to Clegg's position (or any other LD politician). It was between the two parties, 55 of the 57 LD MPs voted for it and the LDs had five ministers.

So if Clegg had resigned the next LD leader would have taken his spot. This process actually happened fairly quickly; at the top they set up a group of four to make sure the two parties were working together. It was Cameron, Osborne, Clegg and David Laws who was Chief Secretary to the Treasury. Only 17 days later Laws had to resign over expenses (he'd been claiming accommodation expenses for staying in his long-term partner's house). He was replaced by Danny Alexander. The LD participation in the coalition was not some personal fiefdom of Clegg's or any other politician.
reohn2
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by reohn2 »

pete75 wrote: 15 Oct 2021, 12:41pm
reohn2 wrote: 15 Oct 2021, 10:23am
PhilD28 wrote: 15 Oct 2021, 8:24am You might want to read this article about immigration and the causes of low wages in the uk

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ion-crisis
That article is spot on and blows out of the water the immigration drove wages down and foreigners stole all our jobs because they're prepared to work for a pittance narrative,so often spouted mostly by those who've never bent their backs or got their hands dirty.
A living wage for reasonable labour,especially in low skilled work is a goal government should strive for,not exponential growth in homelessness or working people(not just those in low skilled jobs either)having to use foodbanks to feed their families.
When in the same time span the people have been suffering,the rich surprise surprise,have got richer some who are even Knights of the realm stealing their own workers pension funds!

Over the past decade successive and despicable Tory governments have over seen this sorry state of affairs before the present clown in chief came to power,a clown in chief who has made things a whole lot worse with the worst Brexit deal possible built and sold on lies upon lies.
Makes you wonder if there hasn't been a long term project since 1979 to create a low paid working class. Destroy union power, reduce benefits, destroy manufacturing with it's reasonably well paid jobs, outsourcing etc etc.

The only reason a job pays low wages is because the employer decides to pay low wages. Nothing to do with immigration. When the minimum wage was implemented in 1999, against strong Conservative opposition, 1.2 million got a pay rise averaging 10%.
I would never have guessed :wink:
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Ben@Forest wrote: 15 Oct 2021, 10:33am
[XAP]Bob wrote: 15 Oct 2021, 10:08am
PDQ Mobile wrote: 14 Oct 2021, 10:12pm If Clegg had left the coalition earlier then a GE would have resulted.
That is the ultimate power of coalition. He was afraid to use it.
But he should have done. IMV.
Would it - IIRC he could have suggested a coalition with labour, and not bothered with a GE at all (a vote of no confidence followed by an election entirely within parliament of a new government).
Clegg couldn't leave the coalition earlier, that was the whole point of the Fixed Terms Parliament Act - neither side could.
I can't believe that to be true. There is always the option of a vote of no confidence, and then a requirement to elect a new prime minister to form a government (whether minority or otherwise)

And in 2010 a Lab/Lib coalition would also have needed the SNP, PC and Greens in the coalition and still have been a minority government.
258 + 57 is 315, which would have been a minority, but still potentially a government.
If you add in the SNP and Green (no s since they only had one MP) then you have 50% once you discount the speaker and SinnFein.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Ben@Forest
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by Ben@Forest »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 15 Oct 2021, 5:55pm
Ben@Forest wrote: 15 Oct 2021, 10:33am
Clegg couldn't leave the coalition earlier, that was the whole point of the Fixed Terms Parliament Act - neither side could.
I can't believe that to be true. There is always the option of a vote of no confidence, and then a requirement to elect a new prime minister to form a government (whether minority or otherwise)
Yes. I was only trying not to indulge in too much pedantry and the comment was 'If Clegg had left the coalition earlier then a GE would have resulted. That is the ultimate power of coalition. He was afraid to use it. I was trying to say that Clegg wasn't some lone player. It would not have been easy to have brought around a vote of confidence or a motion calling for an early election on a whim and you could easily have annoyed a lot of the electorate, not least your own voters and MPs, by trying to do so.
PDQ Mobile
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by PDQ Mobile »

Ben@Forest wrote: 15 Oct 2021, 6:44pm
[XAP]Bob wrote: 15 Oct 2021, 5:55pm
Ben@Forest wrote: 15 Oct 2021, 10:33am
Clegg couldn't leave the coalition earlier, that was the whole point of the Fixed Terms Parliament Act - neither side could.
I can't believe that to be true. There is always the option of a vote of no confidence, and then a requirement to elect a new prime minister to form a government (whether minority or otherwise)
Yes. I was only trying not to indulge in too much pedantry and the comment was 'If Clegg had left the coalition earlier then a GE would have resulted. That is the ultimate power of coalition. He was afraid to use it. I was trying to say that Clegg wasn't some lone player. It would not have been easy to have brought around a vote of confidence or a motion calling for an early election on a whim and you could easily have annoyed a lot of the electorate, not least your own voters and MPs, by trying to do so.
If Clegg had actually left then I assumed as Leader he would have consulted his party about it and they would have all thrown in the towel.
They would have done that because the direction the Cameron Govt was taking was against what was expected and promised to them.

If they had left, and there is no doubt they could have left, then the Govt would have collapsed.
And arguably we wouldn't be in the sad place we are now.

The public may not like elections but hey there's no compulsory vote in the UK and a hellofa lot of folk never do so.
pwa
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by pwa »

pete75 wrote: 15 Oct 2021, 12:41pm

.....................The only reason a job pays low wages is because the employer decides to pay low wages. Nothing to do with immigration. When the minimum wage was implemented in 1999, against strong Conservative opposition, 1.2 million got a pay rise averaging 10%.
The employer decides to pay low wages to keep costs down, but if they have direct and obvious competitors that their customers are aware of, they will be keeping costs down just to remain competitive. That's what happens with the supermarket chains and the delivery companies.. The only way the low paid in sectors like that will see their pay rise above the minimum wage is if the employers find it hard work filling vacancies. A plentiful supply of labour is bad news for anyone stacking shelves, cleaning floors or delivering parcels.
francovendee
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by francovendee »

I agree labour shortage might put wages up but as I understand it we've had a driver shortage for years but it hasn't pushed wages up.
This shortage was inspite of having 'cheap' EU workers to call upon.
The shortages on shelves have focused attention on long running labour shortages. Some jobs are not very appealing and will always struggle to get staff unless pay and conditions are so good people think it's worthwhile just for the money.
It odd how artificial intelligence/ automation is increasingly entering our lives but not in areas where there is historic shortage of people.
Oldjohnw
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by Oldjohnw »

You can be diagnosed for cancer by AI but it appears that supermarket shelves need humans.
John
reohn2
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by reohn2 »

francovendee wrote: 16 Oct 2021, 8:31am I agree labour shortage might put wages up but as I understand it we've had a driver shortage for years but it hasn't pushed wages up.
This shortage was inspite of having 'cheap' EU workers to call upon.
The shortages on shelves have focused attention on long running labour shortages. Some jobs are not very appealing and will always struggle to get staff unless pay and conditions are so good people think it's worthwhile just for the money.
It odd how artificial intelligence/ automation is increasingly entering our lives but not in areas where there is historic shortage of people.
AI can't do many jobs needed,eg;picking fruit needs human eyes and fee.
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reohn2
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by reohn2 »

Oldjohnw wrote: 16 Oct 2021, 8:43am You can be diagnosed for cancer by AI but it appears that supermarket shelves need humans.
Like picking fruit there's too many variables on supermarket sheles.
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Ben@Forest
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by Ben@Forest »

francovendee wrote: 16 Oct 2021, 8:31am I agree labour shortage might put wages up but as I understand it we've had a driver shortage for years but it hasn't pushed wages up.
This shortage was inspite of having 'cheap' EU workers to call upon.
The driver shortage was manageable through foreign drivers and they were attracted here because wages were higher. Having foreign drivers then creates a scenario in which you can keep wages down. This then makes the job less attractive to people who have to actually live in the country, who aren't just here to work for better wages for a while then go home.

As an example I often used to get a taxi and driver who turned up was often the same Polish woman. Over time I found out she lived in a house with four other (male) Polish taxi drivers. They were here for the wages. That isn't wrong, but you can understand that a pool of labour like that will have cheaper overheads than a local taxi driver, with a family, with a mortgage.

The HGV driver crisis was eventually caused by Covid, both drivers going home and prospective drivers not getting lessons/tested - and yes, it does appear there's European driver shortage - and we were overcommitted to dependence on that foreign labour.

https://news.sky.com/story/why-is-europ ... s-12423174
Oldjohnw
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by Oldjohnw »

The UK Transport Select Committee warned 5 years ago that the even then well-known driver shortage would get worse post Brexit.

The government ignored that and then came Covid making it even worse .

Not so much wages as ignoring the obvious.
John
Jdsk
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by Jdsk »

Ben@Forest wrote: 16 Oct 2021, 8:57am The driver shortage was manageable through foreign drivers and they were attracted here because wages were higher. Having foreign drivers then creates a scenario in which you can keep wages down.
Most analyses show the opposite for the recent case of the UK within the EU. Citations available on request.

Of course the arguments can be repeated as often as required, but stating this as a bare fact isn't consistent with the current evidence.

As it happens the 2021 Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences has just been awarded to Card and two others. A major area of Card's work has been on the effects of immigration on labour, including pay.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Card

Jonathan
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