How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

[mjr]

The other question is did people really vote leave because of the lies on the bus.

What was the first question?

Sort of, according to polls taken after the event. The top three reasons to vote Leave were:
1. the principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK;
2. regaining control over immigration and borders;
3. having little or no choice about how the EU expanded its membership or powers.

Of course, 1 is what's known as subsidiarity which was entrenched in the EU during the time of Thatcher and Major; 2 was always the case but the UK repeatedly chose not to exert control under Major and Blair; and 3 is bizarre because the UK had a veto as an EU member and no say once we left.

That EU membership didn't give us those aren't the money/NHS lies on the side of the bus, but they are all lies that appeared in Leave leaflets before the vote.

As to Scottish independence, wasn't it the SNP's economic guru who said independence would be like Brexit but 10 times worse? If that's the Scottish way out you're in it for the long game that's for sure. A big choice braveheart!

No, that was just about the impact on Scottish exports. Mark Blyth also said "There are real fiscal challenges getting there [independence] that cannot be wished away. But the long-term costs of staying tied to the UK’s rapidly imploding growth model are just as bad.”

Did you not know that, or were you asking a misleading question on purpose?

[mjr]

At the moment it's far too easy, given sufficient funds, to target small groups of a people in marginal constituencies and gain complete power with a minority of support.

Far too easy? Since WW2 only twice has a 'minority of support' won a GE, 1951 when Conservatives got 0.8% less votes but more seats than Labour and 1974 when Labour got more seats despite the Conservatives getting 0.7% more votes

What do you mean by a "minority of support"? Since WW2, no party "winning" a GE has had a majority of votes.

And of course PR won't necessarily solve that, currently in Germany there's no guarantee that the SPD who got most votes (25.7%) will be in government. It's possible that the CDU (24.1%) may be able to form the necessary coalition, both parties need to form three-party coalitions [...]

Not entirely true: a continuation of the two-party SPD-CDU grand coalition ("GroKo" - but now SPD would be the larger party) would have a 40ish seat majority, but it has been rejected repeatedly by leading members of both those parties all through the campaign.

[simonineaston]

How can we do that?

You may mean, "Iv'e tried that and it didn't work." in which case, you have a number of options:
* Persude yourself that you don't really care what sort of government is in power. This is good if you want to free up your energies to follow other more pleasant persuits.
* Join an alternative political party whose values you support and work tirelessly to further their cause.
* If you think they've broken a law, then you could try taking your - or any other - MP to court. I imagine this could be expensive.
* Hang about near the Houses of Parliament and make a nuisance of yourself like that Brexit bloke does.
* Foment revolution
* if all else fails, you could try writing to your MP, either to complain about their, or other members, conduct, or to press your point of view.
I can't think of anythng else off the top of my head - no - wait... move to another country!

[Mick F]

Sigh ..............

Going round the buoy yet again.
The ship's crew are getting dizzy.

[Mike Sales]

Sigh ..............

Going round the buoy yet again.
The ship's crew are getting dizzy.

I do not think that it is true to say that Brexit is done.

[Paulatic]

.

As to Scottish independence, wasn't it the SNP's economic guru who said independence would be like Brexit but 10 times worse? If that's the Scottish way out you're in it for the long game that's for sure. A big choice braveheart!

Did you read that in the Torygraph by any chance?
Do you really believe independence supporting Mark Blyth, employed by the SNP, would say that?
Mark Blyth

“There are real fiscal challenges getting there [independence] that cannot be wished away. But the long-term costs of staying tied to the UK’s rapidly imploding growth model are just as bad

Mark Blyth

Speaking on a BBC Radio Scotland interview, also in August 2020, Blyth made clear his view that he had “no doubt” Scotland could be viable economically with independence.

As for A big choice braveheart! I’ll presume it refers to a film I’ve never watched. You do recognise we have a choice though which is a view you’ll not find in the Torygraph.

[Mick F]

We are going round in circles on this subject on this forum.

If we were to merge all the Brexit threads, and the "complaining about the government" threads, plus complaining about the First Past the Post system, and Thatcher, Corbyn, Major et al ..................... etc etc

It would run into thousands of pages.

I'm a Labour supporter and a Brexit supporter (but not the Brexit that the tories organised), and think Johnson is a prat, and Thatcher shouldn't have been elected in the first place, and FPTP should be consigned to history, and Corbyn was a thoroughly decent bloke, and Major was a prat but not as much of a prat as Johnson.

Get that lot out of the way.
Over and out.

[[XAP]Bob]

At the moment it's far too easy, given sufficient funds, to target small groups of a people in marginal constituencies and gain complete power with a minority of support.

Far too easy? Since WW2 only twice has a 'minority of support' won a GE, 1951 when Conservatives got 0.8% less votes but more seats than Labour and 1974 when Labour got more seats despite the Conservatives getting 0.7% more votes

What do you mean by a "minority of support"? Since WW2, no party "winning" a GE has had a majority of votes.

You say that as if it's a good thing?
We should not have 100% of the power in the hands of one party with such limited public support. Maybe if politicians had to actually grow up and compromise amongst themselves we might be in a better position overall.

And of course PR won't necessarily solve that, currently in Germany there's no guarantee that the SPD who got most votes (25.7%) will be in government. It's possible that the CDU (24.1%) may be able to form the necessary coalition, both parties need to form three-party coalitions [...]

Not entirely true: a continuation of the two-party SPD-CDU grand coalition ("GroKo" - but now SPD would be the larger party) would have a 40ish seat majority, but it has been rejected repeatedly by leading members of both those parties all through the campaign.

Most votes doesn't necessarily mean that they should be the governing party - it just means they have a pretty good chance to negotiate sensible compromises because they are the party with the most vote share.

If there were only 6 parties - one extreme left, one extreme right and a cluster of four in the middle and they got 15,20,15,16,10,24 ... then I would expect that the three left of centre parties would join together as the most representative option available.
What we have at the moment is nothing significant far left, a cluster of centre left parties, and then a single party that encompasses everything from slightly right of centre to the very far right - with the nut jobs seemingly in charge at the moment.


That brings me to my second method of changing government, create a bunch of right wing parties...

[Oldjohnw]

We are going round in circles on this subject on this forum.

If we were to merge all the Brexit threads, and the "complaining about the government" threads, plus complaining about the First Past the Post system, and Thatcher, Corbyn, Major et al ..................... etc etc

It would run into thousands of pages.

I'm a Labour supporter and a Brexit supporter (but not the Brexit that the tories organised), and think Johnson is a prat, and Thatcher shouldn't have been elected in the first place, and FPTP should be consigned to history, and Corbyn was a thoroughly decent bloke, and Major was a prat but not as much of a prat as Johnson.

Get that lot out of the way.
Over and out.

Apathy will allow the current lot get their way indefinitely.

[Jdsk]

We are going round in circles on this subject on this forum.

If we were to merge all the Brexit threads, and the "complaining about the government" threads, plus complaining about the First Past the Post system, and Thatcher, Corbyn, Major et al ..................... etc etc

It would run into thousands of pages.

I'm a Labour supporter and a Brexit supporter (but not the Brexit that the tories organised), and think Johnson is a prat, and Thatcher shouldn't have been elected in the first place, and FPTP should be consigned to history, and Corbyn was a thoroughly decent bloke, and Major was a prat but not as much of a prat as Johnson.

Get that lot out of the way.
Over and out.

There are a lot of perceptive comments in this thread, and many of the posters have avoided merely plonking down their personal positions again.

Please keep them coming, folks. Especially those that discuss possible futures and possible actions that will affect which one(s) we have to live through.

Thanks

Jonathan

[Oldjohnw]

What we have at the moment is nothing significant far left, a cluster of centre left parties, and then a single party that encompasses everything from slightly right of centre to the very far right - with the nut jobs seemingly in charge at the moment.

Succinct, and pretty accurate. But far too polite.

[merseymouth]

hi, We should big up the problems that the E.U. hierarchy is having with Poland, where the minnow is stating emphatically that their national law takes precedent over E.U. law, with Van Leyen obviously stating the reverse!
That the Nationalist section of the Dail is trying to rack up the pressure over Ulster is a given, the ghost of Dev walking the corridors!
France is still picking on the Channel Islands as it wants to be seen as "Cock of the walk", the merry go around keeps on turning.
MM

[Jdsk]

hi, We should big up the problems that the E.U. hierarchy is having with Poland, where the minnow is stating emphatically that their national law takes precedent over E.U. law, with Van Leyen obviously stating the reverse!
That the Nationalist section of the Dail is trying to rack up the pressure over Ulster is a given, the ghost of Dev walking the corridors!
France is still picking on the Channel Islands as it wants to be seen as "Cock of the walk", the merry go around keeps on turning.

I don't see any constructive steps there that the UK can take to address its current problems.

And a collection of criticisms of other countries and historical grievances.

That combination seems to me to be rather closer to what got us into this mess than how to get out of it.

Jonathan

[reohn2]

We should not have 100% of the power in the hands of one party with such limited public support.

And that is the heart of the matter IMHO,because it isn't and never will be democracy.

Maybe if politicians had to actually grow up and compromise amongst themselves we might be in a better position overall

OTTOMH a few ideas for any politician's qualifications.

Maybe a lot of things politicians should be and do before they're allowed to even run for election.
Work in a real job.
Have to live on benefits for a year at least.
Have a grasp on what the word demcracy means.
Be aware that corruption carries a prison sentence.
That's just for starters

And many things they should after they're elected.
When you work for the people you serve the people and don't work for anyone else.
Be very aware that if you don't follow the previous law it'll be classed as corruption of your service to the people and will carry a substantial prison sentence.
Your savings will be transparent.
Your spouse and children's source of income will in no way be connected to your job a servant of the people.

You will be paid a very good salary of £150,000 per annum indexed linked but there'll be no other benefits or expenses.


There is far too much corruption within politics at all levels IMHO it's at the heart of poor government and the people,mostly the poorest in society suffer as a result.

[reohn2]

hi, We should big up the problems that the E.U. hierarchy is having with Poland, where the minnow is stating emphatically that their national law takes precedent over E.U. law, with Van Leyen obviously stating the reverse!
That the Nationalist section of the Dail is trying to rack up the pressure over Ulster is a given, the ghost of Dev walking the corridors!
France is still picking on the Channel Islands as it wants to be seen as "Cock of the walk", the merry go around keeps on turning.

I don't see any constructive steps there that the UK can take to address its current problems.

And a collection of criticisms of other countries and historical grievances.

That combination seems to me to be rather closer to what got us into this mess than how to get out of it.

Jonathan

My thoughts exactly!