How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

[Oldjohnw]

It is perhaps worth observing that Germany, which has the greatest amount of immigration in Europe, has the highest wages and greatest productivity.

[reohn2]

......It seems we are very tribal here, and this this sub-forum is often a microcosm of it. Even on this topic there are comments about all Tories being liars all the time, there were recent happy emojis after Rayner' recent 'scum' comment. I apply exactly the same standard to others who insult other party politicians for no other reason that they have a different opinion. Frankly they are puerile people who make governing in a grown-up way more difficult......

No the purile people are the ones running the show currently and who have been running it for much to long for their own interests,and the people in their own party by not standing up against the evil purpatrated by their party will be quite rightly IMV labeled the same.

If the Tory party as a ruling whole had any thoughts for the country as a whole other than their own selfish intention,then they may well be considered fit to be in government whether wholly or in coalition,my experience of them in the past forty years(and I include the Blair government as one of their number)is of party first before anything else,then profit,then the country,which is the people,as a poor third thought.
I stand by anyone who terms them as 'scum' for that is what they are,they're the ruination of this country for their own ends,if you can't see that then you're blind or won't see.

[[XAP]Bob]

I have made the point here before that Clegg and the LDs were slaughtered by their own supporters for going into coalition with the Conservatives and at a time when a functioning government was needed quickly. They did no less well than a junior party in a coalition would be expected to do, but that wasn't recognised.

I actually think they made a massive mistake by allowing the party leader to become a member of the cabinet. He was then restricted from speaking out against unfavourable cabinet decisions.

That mistake was only clear well after the fact though.

[[XAP]Bob]

If Clegg had left the coalition earlier then a GE would have resulted.
That is the ultimate power of coalition. He was afraid to use it.
But he should have done. IMV.

Would it - IIRC he could have suggested a coalition with labour, and not bothered with a GE at all (a vote of no confidence followed by an election entirely within parliament of a new government).

[reohn2]

You might want to read this article about immigration and the causes of low wages in the uk

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ion-crisis

That article is spot on and blows out of the water the immigration drove wages down and foreigners stole all our jobs because they're prepared to work for a pittance narrative,so often spouted mostly by those who've never bent their backs or got their hands dirty.
A living wage for reasonable labour,especially in low skilled work is a goal government should strive for,not exponential growth in homelessness or working people(not just those in low skilled jobs either)having to use foodbanks to feed their families.
When in the same time span the people have been suffering,the rich surprise surprise,have got richer some who are even Knights of the realm stealing their own workers pension funds!

Over the past decade successive and despicable Tory governments have over seen this sorry state of affairs before the present clown in chief came to power,a clown in chief who has made things a whole lot worse with the worst Brexit deal possible built and sold on lies upon lies.

[Ben@Forest]

If Clegg had left the coalition earlier then a GE would have resulted.
That is the ultimate power of coalition. He was afraid to use it.
But he should have done. IMV.

Would it - IIRC he could have suggested a coalition with labour, and not bothered with a GE at all (a vote of no confidence followed by an election entirely within parliament of a new government).

Clegg couldn't leave the coalition earlier, that was the whole point of the Fixed Terms Parliament Act - neither side could.

And in 2010 a Lab/Lib coalition would also have needed the SNP, PC and Greens in the coalition and still have been a minority government.

[pwa]

You might want to read this article about immigration and the causes of low wages in the uk

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ion-crisis

The word "Guardian" puts me off. I associate it with a section of society who have clever answers for everything, but really don't understand the nitty gritty of ordinary life. The Guardian, just like Gordon Brown in 2010, didn't see the discontent that was growing because of lower paid workers not being values by their employers in a market where there was always someone else willing to do the work for less. Okay, they created a minimum wage, but employers just found ways around that. And still do when they think they don't need to retain their current staff. So I'm sorry but I bought that paper for many years but won't be touching it again. Just as I don't read the DM or anything on that side either.

Since the 2016 referendum my own employer has found it harder to get and retain staff and has started to take more seriously the need to keep staff happy.

[Psamathe]

....
I believe us leaving the EU is the end result of a failure of Westminster and the EU itself, over decades, to create something that the overwhelming majority of the UK population could be comfortable with. I know there are folk here who were happy with it, but that wasn't enough. It needed a solid majority in favour and it didn't sustain that. Absolving the EU itself from some of the blame is just head in the sand stuff. If we want to get to the root of it (and I'm not sure I can be bothered even thinking about it anymore) you have to look there too. Not to do so is to be in a state of denial.
....

I think some of the underlying issues come from UK attitude to business and wealth and protections of citizens. Much of the UK seems to be all about money, money, money, business, profits, etc.. We tend more to the US "greed is good" attitudes. So for me a lot about the EU is standing up to business and "profit at any cost" and acting to put in place protections for citizens e.g. banning damaging chemicals or e.g. privacy protections. These are less valued by some in the UK so seen as less of a positive and presented as hindrances (for profits for those with more money than they could ever spend).

Ian

[mjr]

Start with a clear understanding of how we got here. There's no way forward without it.

I believe us leaving the EU is the end result of a failure of Westminster and the EU itself, over decades, to create something that the overwhelming majority of the UK population could be comfortable with. I know there are folk here who were happy with it, but that wasn't enough. It needed a solid majority in favour and it didn't sustain that. Absolving the EU itself from some of the blame is just head in the sand stuff. If we want to get to the root of it (and I'm not sure I can be bothered even thinking about it anymore) you have to look there too. Not to do so is to be in a state of denial.

I think the above beliefs which are almost completely unsupported by evidence is also being in a state of denial. We need to face facts: the top reasons for voting Leave (subsidiarity, migration controls and pausing EU expansion) were not anything that were really prevented by EU membership.

The stuff that's come up afterwards, like Lord Frost's latest quibbling over exactly which foreign court rules over the EUUK relationship, are beloved of the policy wonks in CCHQ but did not figure large in the public's reasons for voting.

Also, criticising the UK is criticising the EU because the UK was part of it. There was no "the EU" as a disconnected distant object. The continued myth that it was somehow remote and beyond our influence, more so than Whitehall, hints at a serious failure in civil education in this country.

One mistake that was made was allowing free movement of labour for folk living in the poorer East European states too soon. Mistakes made by both the EU and Westminster there.

Mainly by Westminster. It was possible to do it more gradually under EU rules but the government of the day chose not to. That was a mistake, ultimately, even if I am unconvinced that it was responsible for all the ills you blame on it.

We are seeing now that bosses would rather destroy their products than pay workers more... and there are legitimate questions about whether dumbly raising pay risks leading back to 1970s-style "stagflation" if there are not market structural changes of the sort which the current government shows no sign of making, with "build back better" appearing to be a slogan not a policy.

[PhilD28]

You might want to read this article about immigration and the causes of low wages in the uk

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ion-crisis

The word "Guardian" puts me off. I associate it with a section of society who have clever answers for everything, but really don't understand the nitty gritty of ordinary life."

In that case you would be very wrong. You could always try reading the piece and look at the evidence presented, it's littered with verified facts that you may find useful in countering the claim regarding immigration.

As far as the "Nitty Gritty" of ordinary life. Well I'm a Chartered Engineer who left school at 15 and did a 6 year engineering apprenticeship, all on the tools while attending the local tech college 3 nights a week to eventually gain a couple of HNC's which I converted to an engineering degree through a lot of hard graft. Basically worked my way up from the bottom. You would be surprised how many people in positions of responsibility worked up from the bottom.
As for the Guardian it's one of the least biased newspapers with some very good reporters and articles. If you make a comparison with the Mail, Sun, Star even the Telegraph you might findit's at least as supportive of the less well off in society.

[mjr]

The word "Guardian" puts me off. [...]

That's shooting the messenger. It publishes some good stuff and some dross, by some good authors (David Olusoga to name one with a current high profile) and some not so good.

Just as I don't read the DM or anything on that side either.

I'm not sure what side you think the Scott Trust is on, but rest assured that it is deeply liberal, not socialist!

[pwa]

The word "Guardian" puts me off. [...]

That's shooting the messenger. It publishes some good stuff and some dross, by some good authors (David Olusoga to name one with a current high profile) and some not so good.

Just as I don't read the DM or anything on that side either.

I'm not sure what side you think the Scott Trust is on, but rest assured that it is deeply liberal, not socialist!

I just don't trust the Guardian to really get to the bottom of issues to do with low pay and poor conditions. I don't want to hear from a comfortably off journo who feels a bit sorry for the poor, but who has no direct experience of working at the coal face of the modern workplace. I want to hear from the folk who work for employers who run rings around employment law because they can always find legal ways of avoiding paying more and treating employees with respect. I have worked for an employer who responded to an increase in the minimum wage by reducing extra pay for working at night or on Sundays, thus keeping the wage bill about the same. But the headline is that the minimum wage has gone up. The only thing that stops employers looking for loopholes is when they find it hard to recruit and they need the loyalty of contented employees.

[Mike Sales]

I just don't trust the Guardian to really get to the bottom of issues to do with low pay and poor conditions. I don't want to hear from a comfortably off journo who feels a bit sorry for the poor, but who has no direct experience of working at the coal face of the modern workplace. I want to hear from the folk who work for employers who run rings around employment law because they can always find legal ways of avoiding paying more and treating employees with respect. I have worked for an employer who responded to an increase in the minimum wage by reducing extra pay for working at night or on Sundays, thus keeping the wage bill about the same. But the headline is that the minimum wage has gone up. The only thing that stops employers looking for loopholes is when they find it hard to recruit and they need the loyalty of contented employees.

So you would like to hear from a journalist who does this?

I was an outsourced Carillion hospital worker. Here’s what I learned
Polly Toynbee
It’s low-paid workers who pay the price of shifting state debt off the Treasury’s books. I know: I’ve seen the process at work

Published in ...?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... asury-work

Of course Carillion went bust soo after.

The government has been accused of failing to learn any lessons from the collapse of the outsourcing giant Carillion two years ago, when more than 3,000 jobs were lost and 450 public sector projects including hospitals, schools and prisons were plunged into crisis.

“The collapse of Carillion, and other high-profile corporate failures, has resulted in thousands of workers losing their jobs,” Cartmail said on Wednesday, exactly two years since Carillion collapsed with £7bn of debt on 15 January 2018. “In all these cases apparently healthy companies suddenly experienced financial problems and in several cases collapsed.

“The UK’s existing auditing and accounting system for major companies is clearly not fit for purpose and workers are suffering as a result. Despite this the government, which has many friends among the major accountancy firms, is proposing to do exactly nothing.”

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ed-nothing

Again the Guardian ignores the causes of low pay and conditions!

[pete75]

You might want to read this article about immigration and the causes of low wages in the uk

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ion-crisis

That article is spot on and blows out of the water the immigration drove wages down and foreigners stole all our jobs because they're prepared to work for a pittance narrative,so often spouted mostly by those who've never bent their backs or got their hands dirty.
A living wage for reasonable labour,especially in low skilled work is a goal government should strive for,not exponential growth in homelessness or working people(not just those in low skilled jobs either)having to use foodbanks to feed their families.
When in the same time span the people have been suffering,the rich surprise surprise,have got richer some who are even Knights of the realm stealing their own workers pension funds!

Over the past decade successive and despicable Tory governments have over seen this sorry state of affairs before the present clown in chief came to power,a clown in chief who has made things a whole lot worse with the worst Brexit deal possible built and sold on lies upon lies.

Makes you wonder if there hasn't been a long term project since 1979 to create a low paid working class. Destroy union power, reduce benefits, destroy manufacturing with it's reasonably well paid jobs, outsourcing etc etc.

The only reason a job pays low wages is because the employer decides to pay low wages. Nothing to do with immigration. When the minimum wage was implemented in 1999, against strong Conservative opposition, 1.2 million got a pay rise averaging 10%.

[pete75]

I just don't trust the Guardian to really get to the bottom of issues to do with low pay and poor conditions. I don't want to hear from a comfortably off journo who feels a bit sorry for the poor, but who has no direct experience of working at the coal face of the modern workplace. I want to hear from the folk who work for employers who run rings around employment law because they can always find legal ways of avoiding paying more and treating employees with respect. I have worked for an employer who responded to an increase in the minimum wage by reducing extra pay for working at night or on Sundays, thus keeping the wage bill about the same. But the headline is that the minimum wage has gone up. The only thing that stops employers looking for loopholes is when they find it hard to recruit and they need the loyalty of contented employees.

So you don't think well educated, articulate people should campaign and argue the case for better treatment of the low paid who often aren't in a position to take up the fight themselves? It's needed more and more since the decline in union membership