How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by [XAP]Bob »

And Brexit is now all neatly wrapped up in the oven ready deal... right... right...

When will people realise that the only time a tory isn't lying is when they aren't speaking.
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francovendee
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by francovendee »

I believe it was called 'Project Fear' and just scaremongering by the remainers. Certainly not to be believed!
Leaving the EU is one thing but having this lot in charge of building a new UK just adds to the difficulties.
I so wish there was a really strong alternative. Starmer would make a better job of it but sadly won't win a GE.
Ben@Forest
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by Ben@Forest »

PH wrote: 14 Oct 2021, 11:49am The problem is there was no other Brexit, believing so is just a fantasy, the idea that we can have some parts but not others was never an option, otherwise every country would choose it.
I have a real dislike of the EU, the protectionism, the centralised economic policy, the control it exerts over sovereign governments... but while it exists not being a part of it is doing exactly as this thread title suggests.
No government or party can offer a law or policy document or even a manifesto as to how leaving the European Union will be done and what it would look like as negotiations can only be started after declaring Article 50. So a domestic player stating exactly what Brexit or Grexit or Quitaly will look like can only be hoping, surmising or guessing. Similarly nobody from the EU could say exactly what Brexit could look like either, though if another country leaves I guess there have been many precedents set now.

We don't know how Brexit will turn out. We've been out for a mere 20 months, nearly all of it coloured by a global pandemic. The UK and EU will inch inexorably back together through bilateral agreements largely about trade and attitudes will soften as current players fade from the current political scene.

And in the longer term what will the EU look like? Will the euro lurch through more crises? Will EU countries (eurozone or not) have to take on the sovereign debt of other EU countries? Will Italy leave? Will the EU tire of illiberal Poland or Hungary? Will richer countries decide the EU budget is too high? We don't know. All very Rumsfeldian...
Jdsk
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by Jdsk »

Ben@Forest wrote: 14 Oct 2021, 1:53pmWe don't know how Brexit will turn out. We've been out for a mere 20 months, nearly all of it coloured by a global pandemic. The UK and EU will inch inexorably back together through bilateral agreements largely about trade and attitudes will soften as current players fade from the current political scene.
The first and last sentences are incompatible...

Jonathan
Last edited by Jdsk on 14 Oct 2021, 3:55pm, edited 1 time in total.
PH
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by PH »

Ben@Forest wrote: 14 Oct 2021, 1:53pm
PH wrote: 14 Oct 2021, 11:49am The problem is there was no other Brexit, believing so is just a fantasy, the idea that we can have some parts but not others was never an option, otherwise every country would choose it.
I have a real dislike of the EU, the protectionism, the centralised economic policy, the control it exerts over sovereign governments... but while it exists not being a part of it is doing exactly as this thread title suggests.
No government or party can offer a law or policy document or even a manifesto as to how leaving the European Union will be done and what it would look like as negotiations can only be started after declaring Article 50. So a domestic player stating exactly what Brexit or Grexit or Quitaly will look like can only be hoping, surmising or guessing.
Maybe we should ask Mick F what Brexit he thought he was voting for?
While you're right about the timing of negotiations and that no party could have given specifics. The broad general principles of the EU were never up for negotiation. The freedom of goods and services without the freedom of movement was never going to be on the table. The Labour party proposed that we should agree the deal and have a referendum on it's ratification, it seemed to me a sensible way forward but was much derided.
Jdsk
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by Jdsk »

PH wrote: 14 Oct 2021, 3:53pm
Ben@Forest wrote: 14 Oct 2021, 1:53pm
PH wrote: 14 Oct 2021, 11:49am The problem is there was no other Brexit, believing so is just a fantasy, the idea that we can have some parts but not others was never an option, otherwise every country would choose it.
I have a real dislike of the EU, the protectionism, the centralised economic policy, the control it exerts over sovereign governments... but while it exists not being a part of it is doing exactly as this thread title suggests.
No government or party can offer a law or policy document or even a manifesto as to how leaving the European Union will be done and what it would look like as negotiations can only be started after declaring Article 50. So a domestic player stating exactly what Brexit or Grexit or Quitaly will look like can only be hoping, surmising or guessing.
Maybe we should ask Mick F what Brexit he thought he was voting for?
While you're right about the timing of negotiations and that no party could have given specifics. The broad general principles of the EU were never up for negotiation. The freedom of goods and services without the freedom of movement was never going to be on the table. The Labour party proposed that we should agree the deal and have a referendum on it's ratification, it seemed to me a sensible way forward but was much derided.
There were many ways that the democratic component could have been stronger, including greater engagement of Parliament and/or direct democracy such as another referendum. And the option appraisal in any of those could have been enormously more fit for purpose than the trapdoor method that was adopted.

And that's all in the past. What should we do now?

Jonathan
reohn2
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by reohn2 »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 14 Oct 2021, 1:37pm When will people realise that the only time a tory isn't lying is when they aren't speaking.
And even when they're quiet they're planning their next devious set of lies and tricks!
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Ben@Forest
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by Ben@Forest »

Jdsk wrote: 14 Oct 2021, 3:49pm
Ben@Forest wrote: 14 Oct 2021, 1:53pmWe don't know how Brexit will turn out. We've been out for a mere 20 months, nearly all of it coloured by a global pandemic. The UK and EU will inch inexorably back together through bilateral agreements largely about trade and attitudes will soften as current players fade from the current political scene.
The first and last sentences are incompatible...

Jonathan
Strictly speaking I suppose yes :D . But eventually the links with EU countries are likely to smooth out and improve. And of course some might argue they'd be better still if we'd stayed in. But it's not just about our relative success or the lack of it - it can only be judged against the EU's progress too.
PDQ Mobile
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by PDQ Mobile »

Ben@forest
It is sort of interesting that you always deride the German system.
Their PR system is, by its nature, dependent upon compromise.
That is the nature of PR.
I myself find that compromise rather hopeful.

Sometimes compromise will be distasteful to many.
Compromise, in my experience, more than often proves beneficial, for at it's heart is a willingness to pool ideas and experience and recognise the validity of another POV.

Contrasted with policy being forced through here in the UK by a quite small minority without any meaningful debate or any compromise. That leads to imbalance.
Policy with regard to old neighbours that many here in the UK find totally unacceptable.

Germany isn't perfect and nor are any of the other member states. No one ever claimed otherwise.
It's a given, some national self interest will be present.
Yet in their fallibility and sometimes profound differences, and in their desire for peaceful cooperation and economic benefit for the majority the EU members shine out as something rather special in a troubled and selfish world. IMV.

It's not as if many of the criticisms of Brexit can be seen, in the light of broken agreements and higher living costs, as unreasonable or untrue.

That contrasts strongly with the supporters of the damn thing, who supply unsupported and wild accusations of some totalitarian super state which remain broadly a fiction, put about by the likes of the far right ERG etc.

The undeniable fact is that, through Brexit, many of us have lost a great deal that we held dear for a very long time.

It seems to me that the UK as a whole is demonstrably poorer, lost much and has gained pretty much nothing.

After the Tories got in 2010 I felt the EU was in some part my protector against some of the more extreme dogma-driven policy.

These Tory Govts have been the most duplicitous and anti-social ones of my long life.
Too many broken promises and lies, right from the word go.
Too much old boys favouritism.

They have eroded much that was laudable and sociable about the UK and turned it, quite deliberately, into a cock pit where the nastist and greediest try to take the lions share.


((PS. I have not forgotten our little flutter.
Looked a close run thing at times!
Still one small slip....I live in tiny hope, as always!
You know it's not the money!))
Ben@Forest
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by Ben@Forest »

PDQ Mobile wrote: 14 Oct 2021, 7:38pm Ben@forest
It is sort of interesting that you always deride the German system.
Their PR system is, by its nature, dependent upon compromise.
That is the nature of PR.
I myself find that compromise rather hopeful.
You are firstly entirely mistaken (and I mean so entirely I'd like an apology). I lived in Germany, I speak German (though with every passing year more rustily). Not only that I have on numerous occasions said on this forum that I support PR.

What I have also said is that I wonder how well many UK voters would take to it. I have made the point here before that Clegg and the LDs were slaughtered by their own supporters for going into coalition with the Conservatives and at a time when a functioning government was needed quickly. They did no less well than a junior party in a coalition would be expected to do, but that wasn't recognised. In Germany there are currently three regional parliaments where the coalition is CDU/SPD/Green (or Conservative/Labour/Green). Nationally the CDU and SPD have just been coalition for years. Could we do that here?

It seems we are very tribal here, and this this sub-forum is often a microcosm of it. Even on this topic there are comments about all Tories being liars all the time, there were recent happy emojis after Rayner' recent 'scum' comment. I apply exactly the same standard to others who insult other party politicians for no other reason that they have a different opinion. Frankly they are puerile people who make governing in a grown-up way more difficult.

So no - I don't deride Germany - you need to get better at reading comments though. I'm off to book my next German holiday. Rant over..... :wink:
Psamathe
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by Psamathe »

Ben@Forest wrote: 14 Oct 2021, 9:10pm .... I have made the point here before that Clegg and the LDs were slaughtered by their own supporters for going into coalition with the Conservatives and at a time when a functioning government was needed quickly. They did no less well than a junior party in a coalition would be expected to do, but that wasn't recognised. .....
At the time I was one of those participating in criticisms of the LDs. But after the next election when Cameron managed a Government on his own I quickly appreciated what a moderating influence the LDs had actually been and how unfair I'd been.

I agree that the UK electorate will not be tolerant of coalitions though that might be driven by our rather poor press. But I do think they would provide better governance and that it the electorate would get used to them (how long might depend on the press).

Ian
Last edited by Psamathe on 14 Oct 2021, 10:29pm, edited 1 time in total.
PDQ Mobile
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by PDQ Mobile »

Ben@Forest wrote: 14 Oct 2021, 9:10pm
PDQ Mobile wrote: 14 Oct 2021, 7:38pm Ben@forest
It is sort of interesting that you always deride the German system.
Their PR system is, by its nature, dependent upon compromise.
That is the nature of PR.
I myself find that compromise rather hopeful.
You are firstly entirely mistaken (and I mean so entirely I'd like an apology). I lived in Germany, I speak German (though with every passing year more rustily). Not only that I have on numerous occasions said on this forum that I support PR.

What I have also said is that I wonder how well many UK voters would take to it. I have made the point here before that Clegg and the LDs were slaughtered by their own supporters for going into coalition with the Conservatives and at a time when a functioning government was needed quickly. They did no less well than a junior party in a coalition would be expected to do, but that wasn't recognised. In Germany there are currently three regional parliaments where the coalition is CDU/SPD/Green (or Conservative/Labour/Green). Nationally the CDU and SPD have just been coalition for years. Could we do that here?

It seems we are very tribal here, and this this sub-forum is often a microcosm of it. Even on this topic there are comments about all Tories being liars all the time, there were recent happy emojis after Rayner' recent 'scum' comment. I apply exactly the same standard to others who insult other party politicians for no other reason that they have a different opinion. Frankly they are puerile people who make governing in a grown-up way more difficult.

So no - I don't deride Germany - you need to get better at reading comments though. I'm off to book my next German holiday. Rant over..... :wink:
First sentence badly worded on my part.
The one I didn't really re-read!
I apologise.

But the gist of what I think about what I (and we) have lost is pretty ok.
It seems to me you use the PR issue to always argue that the German system is worse than our own.
I don't think that is the case.

If Clegg had left the coalition earlier then a GE would have resulted.
That is the ultimate power of coalition. He was afraid to use it.
But he should have done. IMV.
PH
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by PH »

Jdsk wrote: 14 Oct 2021, 3:59pm And that's all in the past. What should we do now?
Jonathan
Start with a clear understanding of how we got here. There's no way forward without it.
pwa
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by pwa »

PH wrote: 15 Oct 2021, 12:10am
Jdsk wrote: 14 Oct 2021, 3:59pm And that's all in the past. What should we do now?
Jonathan
Start with a clear understanding of how we got here. There's no way forward without it.
I believe us leaving the EU is the end result of a failure of Westminster and the EU itself, over decades, to create something that the overwhelming majority of the UK population could be comfortable with. I know there are folk here who were happy with it, but that wasn't enough. It needed a solid majority in favour and it didn't sustain that. Absolving the EU itself from some of the blame is just head in the sand stuff. If we want to get to the root of it (and I'm not sure I can be bothered even thinking about it anymore) you have to look there too. Not to do so is to be in a state of denial.

One mistake that was made was allowing free movement of labour for folk living in the poorer East European states too soon. Mistakes made by both the EU and Westminster there. So instead of just getting a healthy and useful two way movement of labour we had what appeared to many as a deluge. And for UK workers on low wages that was very bad news. They saw their terms and conditions deteriorate, and their services not valued by employers who now had an endless stream of new recruits if the existing workers didn't stay. That was the reality of being in the EU for many people. It was great for exploitative employers. It was lovely for Amazon, Sports Direct and anyone looking to cut their wage bill. And it was not adequately dealt with either in Westminster or the EU.

I know folk here will tend to blame Westminster and direct little or no criticism towards the EU, as if (unlike any other human construct) it is infallible. But some of us lost hope that either or both of them would fix this, unless we pressed the nuclear button. That was the only thing they couldn't ignore. Up to that point they just weren't interested. You can call this "Cutting your nose off to spite your face", and I do understand that point of view. But enough is enough. Time had run out on waiting for the EU and Westminster to deal with it. They weren't going to deal with it. Even Labour, the party of the workers, had given up on protecting UK workers from having to compete with foreign labour. Even Labour! In the end there was nowhere else to turn.
PhilD28
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Re: How does the UK stop cutting off it's nose to spite it's face

Post by PhilD28 »

You might want to read this article about immigration and the causes of low wages in the uk

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ion-crisis
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