Sir David Amess MP. RIP

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reohn2
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Re: Sir David Amess MP. RIP

Post by reohn2 »

mjr wrote: 21 Oct 2021, 11:18am
reohn2 wrote: 21 Oct 2021, 9:14am Amess' political leanings are beside the point.
The only fact relevant is that a democratically* elected representative of the people of the UK was brutally murdered by a terrorist/madman(take your pick) and the UK is the worse for that act.


*a very flawed type of democracy IMO
I agree and mourn for that reason, but sadly people keep making political points here, from the opening post to the above!
My point was not to connect an MP's brutal murder with his politics.
The political system is flawed would you not agree?

So.... isn't making Southend-on-Sea a city an insult to Amess? His arguments in Parliament for nearly four decades were ineffective and insufficient, but his murder convinced Boris? Amazing but it seems no one in the media dares question it.
When it needs a man's murder to convince a government to endorse something which is campaigned for forty years,that government stoops to a new kind of crass IMHO.
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mjr
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Re: Sir David Amess MP. RIP

Post by mjr »

reohn2 wrote: 21 Oct 2021, 12:41pm My point was not to connect an MP's brutal murder with his politics.
The political system is flawed would you not agree?
Yes, but is this an appropriate topic for that political discussion?
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reohn2
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Re: Sir David Amess MP. RIP

Post by reohn2 »

mjr wrote: 21 Oct 2021, 12:54pm
reohn2 wrote: 21 Oct 2021, 12:41pm My point was not to connect an MP's brutal murder with his politics.
The political system is flawed would you not agree?
Yes, but is this an appropriate topic for that political discussion?
It's not an invitation for political discussion just a passing comment on the state democracy in the UK,but I take your point and have edited out of the post.
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mjr
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Re: Sir David Amess MP. RIP

Post by mjr »

reohn2 wrote: 21 Oct 2021, 12:59pm
mjr wrote: 21 Oct 2021, 12:54pm
reohn2 wrote: 21 Oct 2021, 12:41pm My point was not to connect an MP's brutal murder with his politics.
The political system is flawed would you not agree?
Yes, but is this an appropriate topic for that political discussion?
It's not an invitation for political discussion just a passing comment on the state democracy in the UK,but I take your point and have edited out of the post.
Thank you. Unlike Twitter and Fakebook which now let you switch off replies, we cannot stop other members of this site from replying, so there's not really any such thing as "just a passing comment".
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Jdsk
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Re: Sir David Amess MP. RIP

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Nick Price, Head of the CPS Special Crime and Counter Terrorism Division, said: “The CPS has authorised charges against Ali Harbi Ali for the murder of MP Sir David Amess on Friday 15 October 2021. We will submit to the court that this murder has a terrorist connection, namely that it had both religious and ideological motivations.

“He has also been charged with the preparation of terrorist acts. This follows a review of the evidence gathered by the Metropolitan Police in its investigation.

“The Crown Prosecution Service reminds all concerned that criminal proceedings against Mr Ali are active and that he has the right to a fair trial.”

https://www.cps.gov.uk/cps/news/cps-aut ... avid-amess

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Sir David Amess MP. RIP

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We will submit to the court that this murder has a terrorist connection, namely that it had both religious and ideological motivations.
Interesting that "has a religious motivation" is now considered terrorism.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
reohn2
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Re: Sir David Amess MP. RIP

Post by reohn2 »

I strongly believe those who commit such acts of terrorism should not be named publicly.
As IMO publicly naming such individuals leads to them being heralded as heroes within their particular network.
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Jdsk
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Re: Sir David Amess MP. RIP

Post by Jdsk »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 21 Oct 2021, 2:18pm
We will submit to the court that this murder has a terrorist connection, namely that it had both religious and ideological motivations.
Interesting that "has a religious motivation" is now considered terrorism.
Terrorism Act, 2006:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... m-act-2006

The Terrorism Act 2006 uses the definition of terrorism contained in the Terrorism Act 2000. Section 34 amends that definition slightly, to include specific types of actions against international governmental organisations, such as the UN. The definition in the Terrorism Act 2000 (as amended) states:

1 (1) In this Act “terrorism” means the use or threat of action where:
2 the action falls within subsection (2)
3 the use or threat is designed to influence the government or an international governmental organisation or to intimidate the public or a section of the public
4 the use or threat is made for the purpose of advancing a political, religious or ideological cause.


Jonathan
slowster
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Re: Sir David Amess MP. RIP

Post by slowster »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 21 Oct 2021, 2:18pm
We will submit to the court that this murder has a terrorist connection, namely that it had both religious and ideological motivations.
Interesting that "has a religious motivation" is now considered terrorism.
Not really.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/11/section/1
(1)In this Act “terrorism” means the use or threat of action where—

(a)the action falls within subsection (2),

(b)the use or threat is designed to influence the government or an international governmental organisation or to intimidate the public or a section of the public, and

(c)the use or threat is made for the purpose of advancing a political, religious, racial or ideological cause.

(2)Action falls within this subsection if it—

(a)involves serious violence against a person,

(b)involves serious damage to property,

(c)endangers a person’s life, other than that of the person committing the action,

(d)creates a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or a section of the public, or

(e)is designed seriously to interfere with or seriously to disrupt an electronic system.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Sir David Amess MP. RIP

Post by [XAP]Bob »

The legislation may well define that, it still seems an interesting definition.

The fact that the murder was religiously motivated doesn't necessarily mean that the motivation is the influence of government.


"I strongly believe those who commit such acts of terrorism should not be named publicly."
I'd be with you on that one - but when do you determine that the name should be withheld? Up until conviction/acquittal?
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
slowster
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Re: Sir David Amess MP. RIP

Post by slowster »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 21 Oct 2021, 3:19pm The legislation may well define that, it still seems an interesting definition.

The fact that the murder was religiously motivated doesn't necessarily mean that the motivation is the influence of government.
Terrorism undertaken with the aim of influencing government or the democratic process is not the only form of terrorism. It's terrorism when an Islamic State suicide bomber kills dozens of Shia Muslims in a mosque. It's terrorism when a self-styled Christian murders a doctor who performs abortions, or bombs an abortion clinic.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Sir David Amess MP. RIP

Post by [XAP]Bob »

No, I picked the most likely of the items from the third requirement.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
reohn2
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Re: Sir David Amess MP. RIP

Post by reohn2 »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 21 Oct 2021, 3:19pm "I strongly believe those who commit such acts of terrorism should not be named publicly."
I'd be with you on that one - but when do you determine that the name should be withheld? Up until conviction/acquittal?
For people who commit acts of terrorism,for all time and similarly so those accused of any crime and found not guilty.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Sir David Amess MP. RIP

Post by [XAP]Bob »

I agree
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
DaveReading
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Re: Sir David Amess MP. RIP

Post by DaveReading »

mattheus wrote: 21 Oct 2021, 10:17am
DaveReading wrote: 21 Oct 2021, 9:58am For example Roman Catholics believe that suicide is a sin. So a Catholic couldn't possibly be a Samaritan, could they, since the latter believe that people have the right to find their own solution, even if that includes suicide ?
As an aside; is that true, and to what extent? Would a samaritan just hang-up once someone declared they were going to end it all?
Would they not try everything to talk them out of it?
No, they wouldn't hang up - in fact there are very few circumstances under which a call would be unilaterally terminated.

And yes, they would do everything they could to help a caller expressing suicidal thoughts to think about other options they might have, and to consider what effect the caller taking their own life might have on those left behind.

But ultimately, a volunteer's role is to listen, not to prescribe, persuade or blackmail. The full version of the quote in my earlier post says

"We believe that people have the right to find their own solution and that telling people what to do takes responsibility away from them."

See https://www.samaritans.org/about-samari ... nd-values/
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