Sir David Amess MP. RIP

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thirdcrank
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Re: Sir David Amess MP. RIP

Post by thirdcrank »

Re: Religion in politics

More specifically, Roman Catholics and penal reform, I'm reminded of the person perhaps most widely known as Lord Longford.

Although his views, activities and oddball appearance meant he was satirised, lampooned and generally misrepresented, I think some things are certain.

He began his political life as a Tory and only converted to RC as an adult.

It seemed to me that whatever personal experience guided him, he took his lead from his religious beliefs and perhaps tried to explain things in a way that fitted his faith. Then, believing he was somehow justified by a higher authority, he seemed to dismiss the attitudes of others as misguided. ie Something much stronger than disagreement and bordering on arrogance.

Coupled with this, he had a remarkable political life as an aristocrat in that have failed at the ballot box he was created a hereditary peer to represent Labour in the Lords, even though he eventually succeeded to his family's hereditary peerage, and when Tony Blair effectively disenfranchised the hereditaries he was created a life peer. In short, his entire political career was unelected.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Pak ... f_Longford
pwa
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Re: Sir David Amess MP. RIP

Post by pwa »

DaveReading wrote: 21 Oct 2021, 9:58am
pwa wrote: 21 Oct 2021, 5:27amI have no "faith", but for people who do, it is part of who they are and how they see the world. It is where their "values" are shaped. So indirectly their faith will inevitably be behind their views. How could it be otherwise?
No, not necessarily.

For example Roman Catholics believe that suicide is a sin. So a Catholic couldn't possibly be a Samaritan, could they, since the latter believe that people have the right to find their own solution, even if that includes suicide ?

And yet a fair number of Sams are indeed Roman Catholics - the deal for a volunteer is that when you're answering the phone, or emails, or sitting face-to-face with a caller, you leave your religious beliefs at the door.

It's no different for a politician.
Some Roman Catholics believe suicide is a sin and some don't. A lot of them find their church's view on contraception comical, so don't stick to that either. You make the outsiders' mistake of seeing them as a bloc with one view on everything. Just because the Pope says something is so, doesn't mean every Catholic accepts it. It is a person's own personal religious views that shape their values, not the official line of their church.

I did once know a church-going RC lady who volunteered for the Samaritans and she seemed to me to be just the sort of person you would want on the other end of the line if you were having a hard time. And she wasn't dogmatic.

But from the little I know of him, Amess may have been "old school".
Psamathe
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Re: Sir David Amess MP. RIP

Post by Psamathe »

pwa wrote: 23 Oct 2021, 3:49pm
DaveReading wrote: 21 Oct 2021, 9:58am
pwa wrote: 21 Oct 2021, 5:27amI have no "faith", but for people who do, it is part of who they are and how they see the world. It is where their "values" are shaped. So indirectly their faith will inevitably be behind their views. How could it be otherwise?
No, not necessarily.

For example Roman Catholics believe that suicide is a sin. So a Catholic couldn't possibly be a Samaritan, could they, since the latter believe that people have the right to find their own solution, even if that includes suicide ?

And yet a fair number of Sams are indeed Roman Catholics - the deal for a volunteer is that when you're answering the phone, or emails, or sitting face-to-face with a caller, you leave your religious beliefs at the door.

It's no different for a politician.
Some Roman Catholics believe suicide is a sin and some don't. A lot of them find their church's view on contraception comical, so don't stick to that either. You make the outsiders' mistake of seeing them as a bloc with one view on everything. Just because the Pope says something is so, doesn't mean every Catholic accepts it. It is a person's own personal religious views that shape their values, not the official line of their church.

I did once know a church-going RC lady who volunteered for the Samaritans and she seemed to me to be just the sort of person you would want on the other end of the line if you were having a hard time. And she wasn't dogmatic.
....
How much "cherry picking" are Catholics permitted to still be considered Catholic by the church? If you attend church regularly, do confession, but reject the contraception bit is that OK? What about if you reject the existance of God, still OK? At what point do you cease to be a Catholic and become just somebody who believes in God (or doesn't)?

Ian
Jdsk
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Re: Sir David Amess MP. RIP

Post by Jdsk »

Psamathe wrote: 23 Oct 2021, 5:02pmHow much "cherry picking" are Catholics permitted to still be considered Catholic by the church? If you attend church regularly, do confession, but reject the contraception bit is that OK? What about if you reject the existance of God, still OK? At what point do you cease to be a Catholic and become just somebody who believes in God (or doesn't)?
1 A lot.
2 Roughly yes.
3 and 4 Same rule as the Hotel California. Until excommunication.

Jonathan
pwa
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Re: Sir David Amess MP. RIP

Post by pwa »

Psamathe wrote: 23 Oct 2021, 5:02pm
pwa wrote: 23 Oct 2021, 3:49pm
DaveReading wrote: 21 Oct 2021, 9:58am
No, not necessarily.

For example Roman Catholics believe that suicide is a sin. So a Catholic couldn't possibly be a Samaritan, could they, since the latter believe that people have the right to find their own solution, even if that includes suicide ?

And yet a fair number of Sams are indeed Roman Catholics - the deal for a volunteer is that when you're answering the phone, or emails, or sitting face-to-face with a caller, you leave your religious beliefs at the door.

It's no different for a politician.
Some Roman Catholics believe suicide is a sin and some don't. A lot of them find their church's view on contraception comical, so don't stick to that either. You make the outsiders' mistake of seeing them as a bloc with one view on everything. Just because the Pope says something is so, doesn't mean every Catholic accepts it. It is a person's own personal religious views that shape their values, not the official line of their church.

I did once know a church-going RC lady who volunteered for the Samaritans and she seemed to me to be just the sort of person you would want on the other end of the line if you were having a hard time. And she wasn't dogmatic.
....
How much "cherry picking" are Catholics permitted to still be considered Catholic by the church? If you attend church regularly, do confession, but reject the contraception bit is that OK? What about if you reject the existance of God, still OK? At what point do you cease to be a Catholic and become just somebody who believes in God (or doesn't)?

Ian
In practice the individual decides for himself / herself. Perhaps Sir David had views on what you have to believe in to be a Catholic, or perhaps he didn't. I don't know. I know a couple of Catholics who definitely do have views on what you have to sign up to, but I know others who think you can do a pick and mix so long as you subscribe to some very basic things such as believing in Jesus Christ as the son of God, who rose from the dead. I don't know any who reject that. But on other stuff, like contraception, there has always been dissent. I have known Catholics with some pretty liberal views on many social matters. David Amess seems to have been in the strict, hard line camp.
thirdcrank
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Re: Sir David Amess MP. RIP

Post by thirdcrank »

Sir David Amess: Priest quits social media over MP last rites abuse

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-59036023

Social media are not for the faint-hearted.
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Hellhound
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Re: Sir David Amess MP. RIP

Post by Hellhound »

thirdcrank wrote: 25 Oct 2021, 2:37pm Sir David Amess: Priest quits social media over MP last rites abuse
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-59036023
Social media are not for the faint-hearted.
It's only words.
I don't understand why people get so worked up about some idiot(s) trolling them on Social Media :roll:
I have Facebook,Instagram and Twitter and would not use any if I thought anything on them would affect my mental health.

Some people are just not cut out for the internet :lol: :lol: :lol:
pwa
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Re: Sir David Amess MP. RIP

Post by pwa »

Hellhound wrote: 25 Oct 2021, 3:07pm
thirdcrank wrote: 25 Oct 2021, 2:37pm Sir David Amess: Priest quits social media over MP last rites abuse
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-59036023
Social media are not for the faint-hearted.
It's only words.
I don't understand why people get so worked up about some idiot(s) trolling them on Social Media :roll:
I have Facebook,Instagram and Twitter and would not use any if I thought anything on them would affect my mental health.

Some people are just not cut out for the internet :lol: :lol: :lol:
Surely stepping away from a hostile environment is a rational thing to do unless you enjoy constant spats.
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Hellhound
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Re: Sir David Amess MP. RIP

Post by Hellhound »

pwa wrote: 25 Oct 2021, 3:12pm
Hellhound wrote: 25 Oct 2021, 3:07pm
thirdcrank wrote: 25 Oct 2021, 2:37pm Sir David Amess: Priest quits social media over MP last rites abuse
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-59036023
Social media are not for the faint-hearted.
It's only words.
I don't understand why people get so worked up about some idiot(s) trolling them on Social Media :roll:
I have Facebook,Instagram and Twitter and would not use any if I thought anything on them would affect my mental health.

Some people are just not cut out for the internet :lol: :lol: :lol:
Surely stepping away from a hostile environment is a rational thing to do unless you enjoy constant spats.
Step away,yes,if that's what you want to do but publicly stating you're deleting your account is just attention seeking IMO.Celebs seem to do it quite often and then return.
A bit like stating you are leaving the Forum then coming back a few weeks later :roll:
99% of the time it's not 'hostile' anyway it's just banter :roll:
thirdcrank
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Re: Sir David Amess MP. RIP

Post by thirdcrank »

IMO, this is about the violent death of Sir David Amess but one way or another, it's started to be about Father Jeff Woolnough and that seems to have been partially a result of his use of social media.
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661-Pete
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Re: Sir David Amess MP. RIP

Post by 661-Pete »

thirdcrank wrote: 25 Oct 2021, 8:41pm IMO, this is about the violent death of Sir David Amess but one way or another, it's started to be about Father Jeff Woolnough and that seems to have been partially a result of his use of social media.
We seem to have said all that needs to be said about Sir David. I think the thread drift to social media is legitimate.
pwa wrote: 25 Oct 2021, 3:12pm
Hellhound wrote: 25 Oct 2021, 3:07pm It's only words.
I don't understand why people get so worked up about some idiot(s) trolling them on Social Media :roll:
I have Facebook,Instagram and Twitter and would not use any if I thought anything on them would affect my mental health.

Some people are just not cut out for the internet :lol: :lol: :lol:
Surely stepping away from a hostile environment is a rational thing to do unless you enjoy constant spats.
Yes: there are people of the "Sticks and Stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me" persuasion.

I'm afraid I am not one of them. Luckily I'm not in the public eye so it doesn't really affect me. Nor do I use Twitter et al. But I have been mentally hurt in the past - merely by words. I stepped away from a forum and subsequently got abuse. No point in giving details.
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
thirdcrank
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Re: Sir David Amess MP. RIP

Post by thirdcrank »

We seem to have said all that needs to be said about Sir David. I think the thread drift to social media is legitimate.
That's not the point I was trying to make, which is that the news story - I got my link from the BBC www - has now turned to how Father Jeff Woolnough has been treated on social media. FWIW, when this aspect was first mentioned I jumped to the conclusion it was people telling him to neb out, but it seems he also took flak from people who thought he should have pushed harder to enter the crime scene.
pwa
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Re: Sir David Amess MP. RIP

Post by pwa »

Hellhound wrote: 25 Oct 2021, 7:24pm
pwa wrote: 25 Oct 2021, 3:12pm
Hellhound wrote: 25 Oct 2021, 3:07pm

It's only words.
I don't understand why people get so worked up about some idiot(s) trolling them on Social Media :roll:
I have Facebook,Instagram and Twitter and would not use any if I thought anything on them would affect my mental health.

Some people are just not cut out for the internet :lol: :lol: :lol:
Surely stepping away from a hostile environment is a rational thing to do unless you enjoy constant spats.
Step away,yes,if that's what you want to do but publicly stating you're deleting your account is just attention seeking IMO.Celebs seem to do it quite often and then return.
A bit like stating you are leaving the Forum then coming back a few weeks later :roll:
99% of the time it's not 'hostile' anyway it's just banter :roll:
It is a choice all of us face at one time or another, though, whether to continue or to give it up as a waste of time and more trouble than it is worth. I have stepped away from this Forum in the past, thinking I might not return, but then returned when I had cooled down and set myself some new rules about how I do or don't communicate with others. But for a public figure some sort of public explanation would be expected.
Psamathe
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Re: Sir David Amess MP. RIP

Post by Psamathe »

pwa wrote: 26 Oct 2021, 5:32pm .....
It is a choice all of us face at one time or another, though, whether to continue or to give it up as a waste of time and more trouble than it is worth. I have stepped away from this Forum in the past, thinking I might not return, but then returned when I had cooled down and set myself some new rules about how I do or don't communicate with others. But for a public figure some sort of public explanation would be expected.
Likewise. I just stopped posting, no "I'm so angry I'm not ever ..." posts. Just time for a break, focus on other stuff and when ready just start posting again. Or if specific aspects are touching nerves, just avoid those aspects (for a bit/long time/forever, just play it by ear, see how you feel and act accordingly).

Ian
reohn2
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Re: Sir David Amess MP. RIP

Post by reohn2 »

Hellhound wrote: 25 Oct 2021, 7:24pm ........A bit like stating you are leaving the Forum then coming back a few weeks later :roll:.....
I strongly suspect that remark is aimed in my direction.
All I can say to you is,so what,can someone not change their mind because they miss the forum and the virtual friends they've made on here?

BTW I was heartened greatly by the good wishes I received from those friends when did return :D .
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