Royal Succession

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roubaixtuesday
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Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: Royal Succession

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Wilhelmus wrote: 24 Oct 2021, 4:54pm The fact is that Ireland was a home nation, an equal partner with England, Wales and Scotland in governing the greatest empire the world has ever seen.
Leaving the rest of your partisan rant aside, I wonder how "greatest" is defined.

I seriously doubt too many of the people on the receiving end of this "greatness" would agree with this suggestion of yours.

Including a large majority of those living on the island of Ireland.
pete75
Posts: 16356
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Royal Succession

Post by pete75 »

Wilhelmus wrote: 24 Oct 2021, 4:54pm
pete75 wrote: 24 Oct 2021, 1:20pmNorthern Ireland is the last part of Ireland still occupied by Britain. Why would the President of Ireland take any part in commemorating it's founding?
Because he is the President of Ireland, not just of the Irish Republic. The Irish Constitution no longer explicitly lays claim, in Articles 2 and 3, to the Six Counties as part of its territory, but the official aspiration is that, at some future date, Ireland will once again consist of 32 counties. A resident of Northern Ireland is entitled to hold an Irish passport, to sit in the Irish Senate, and to be President of Ireland. Mary McAleese was from the North. The President is addressed in English as Your Excellency, just ike an ambassador. Like an ambassador, his job is to be a diplomat, sometimes carrying out duties which are not to his taste. Imagine how the Queen must have felt shaking hands with Martin McGuinness. She didn't duck it by saying she was 'not in a position to do it.'

Let us examine the assertion, beloved of those of a Republican persuasion, that Ireland was occupied by Britain. Like any other country, it had seen centuries of invasion, migration, trade, etc., which left it with a very diverse and cosmopolitan population. The notion of Irishness, characterised by speaking Irish, playing Gaelic games, step dancing, etc. is very much a modern idea, and a result of the nationalist movement from the end of the nineteenth century. There were, and are, other versions of Irish identity, one of which I possess.

Northern Ireland is not occupied by Britain, but by its inhabitants, a majority of whom clearly wish to remain part of Britain. The fact is that Ireland was a home nation, an equal partner with England, Wales and Scotland in governing the greatest empire the world has ever seen. It allowed a bunch of lunatics and malcontents, along with some high-profile Anglo-Irish renegades like Sir Roger Casement, to lead it along a road which resulted in untold bloodshed, misery and destruction, so that it now has the status of a banana republic unable to defend its own airspace. This latter job falls to the RAF, who regularly have to move on Russian nuclear bombers from the west coast of Ireland. Irish independence is a joke, and a bad one.
Bloody hell Arlene. I know you're a bit upset at losing office but there's no need to come here and rant. FYI Northern Ireland is not part of Britain. It is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Wilhelmus
Posts: 124
Joined: 19 Oct 2021, 4:35pm

Re: Royal Succession

Post by Wilhelmus »

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Last edited by Wilhelmus on 2 Nov 2021, 3:24pm, edited 1 time in total.
pete75
Posts: 16356
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Royal Succession

Post by pete75 »

Wilhelmus wrote: 24 Oct 2021, 11:12pm How is it partisan when an Irish Protestant Unionist states his position, but not when a Catholic Nationalist does?
Are there any Catholic Nationalists here ranting about Northern Ireland? If there are I haven't seen them.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
roubaixtuesday
Posts: 5801
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: Royal Succession

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Wilhelmus wrote: 27 Oct 2021, 3:11pm But then I might be prejudiced.
Your posts do suggest this as the most obvious conclusion.
Wilhelmus
Posts: 124
Joined: 19 Oct 2021, 4:35pm

Re: Royal Succession

Post by Wilhelmus »

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Last edited by Wilhelmus on 25 Nov 2021, 1:56pm, edited 1 time in total.
pete75
Posts: 16356
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Royal Succession

Post by pete75 »

Wilhelmus wrote: 27 Oct 2021, 3:26pm You know what they say: if it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck and looks like a duck, chances are it's a duck. Just substitute dyed-in-the-wool reactionary Southern Unionist and you have the picture.

Edited to correct spelling of 'dyed.' Had put 'died.' Is this karma, I ask myself?
Looks like you misspelled Northern too.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
roubaixtuesday
Posts: 5801
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: Royal Succession

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Wilhelmus wrote: 27 Oct 2021, 3:26pm You know what they say: if it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck and looks like a duck, chances are it's a duck. Just substitute dyed-in-the-wool reactionary Southern Unionist and you have the picture.
I honestly have not the faintest clue what you're on about or who you're referring to.
Ben@Forest
Posts: 3647
Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 5:58pm

Re: Royal Succession

Post by Ben@Forest »

pete75 wrote: 27 Oct 2021, 3:44pm
Wilhelmus wrote: 27 Oct 2021, 3:26pm You know what they say: if it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck and looks like a duck, chances are it's a duck. Just substitute dyed-in-the-wool reactionary Southern Unionist and you have the picture.

Edited to correct spelling of 'dyed.' Had put 'died.' Is this karma, I ask myself?
Looks like you misspelled Northern too.
I hesitate to tread into this argument, but there are and were Southern Unionists. The depletion of Irish Protestants in Southern Ireland was tantamount to ethnic cleansing. Around 15% of the southern Irish population was Protestant in 1920, by 2010 it was slightly over 3%. A huge number of Protestants left in the first three years of the Irish Free State, and around 100 to 200 Irish Protestants were murdered.

Of course aligning Protestantism/Unionism and Catholicism/Nationalism is stepping onto quicksand - one doesn't automatically mean the other follows but later de Valera's Ireland was culturally conservative and resolutely Catholic - Protestants were 'other'. So there was prejudice against them and many emigrated, to NI, to mainland UK and to America.

I had some relatives from the Protestant Southern Irish exodus.
Mike Sales
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Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Royal Succession

Post by Mike Sales »

Yes, several prominent Irish Nationalists were Protestants.
Charles Stewart Parnell, Wolf Tone, Erskine Childers, Constance Markevicz, W.B. Yeats amongst them.

Did you know Brendan Behan's definition of an Anglo-Irishman?
"A Protestant on a horse."
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Ben@Forest
Posts: 3647
Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 5:58pm

Re: Royal Succession

Post by Ben@Forest »

Mike Sales wrote: 27 Oct 2021, 5:32pm Did you know Brendan Behan's definition of an Anglo-Irishman?
"A Protestant on a horse."
Presumably generally not those wearing silks, breeches and carrying a whip though.....
pete75
Posts: 16356
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Royal Succession

Post by pete75 »

Ben@Forest wrote: 27 Oct 2021, 5:00pm
pete75 wrote: 27 Oct 2021, 3:44pm
Wilhelmus wrote: 27 Oct 2021, 3:26pm You know what they say: if it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck and looks like a duck, chances are it's a duck. Just substitute dyed-in-the-wool reactionary Southern Unionist and you have the picture.

Edited to correct spelling of 'dyed.' Had put 'died.' Is this karma, I ask myself?
Looks like you misspelled Northern too.
I hesitate to tread into this argument, but there are and were Southern Unionists. The depletion of Irish Protestants in Southern Ireland was tantamount to ethnic cleansing. Around 15% of the southern Irish population was Protestant in 1920, by 2010 it was slightly over 3%. A huge number of Protestants left in the first three years of the Irish Free State, and around 100 to 200 Irish Protestants were murdered.

Of course aligning Protestantism/Unionism and Catholicism/Nationalism is stepping onto quicksand - one doesn't automatically mean the other follows but later de Valera's Ireland was culturally conservative and resolutely Catholic - Protestants were 'other'. So there was prejudice against them and many emigrated, to NI, to mainland UK and to America.

I had some relatives from the Protestant Southern Irish exodus.
Hmmm. That mostly happened seventy to a hundred years ago and was an understandable reaction after several hundred years of protestant dominance. The actions of the Auxiliaries and Black and Tans added fuel to the fire, literally when some of them set fire to the centre of Cork , causing over £3 million worth of damage at 1920 prices.
The number of protestants emigrating from Southern Ireland was miniscule compared to the estimated 8 million, mainly Catholics, who emigrated between 1801 and 1921.
After the formation of Northern Ireland in 1921 Protestant domination of the Catholics continued there and was one of the main causes of the "Troubles".
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
ANTONISH
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Joined: 26 Mar 2009, 9:49am

Re: Royal Succession

Post by ANTONISH »

Ben@Forest wrote: 27 Oct 2021, 5:00pm

I hesitate to tread into this argument, but there are and were Southern Unionists. The depletion of Irish Protestants in Southern Ireland was tantamount to ethnic cleansing. Around 15% of the southern Irish population was Protestant in 1920, by 2010 it was slightly over 3%. A huge number of Protestants left in the first three years of the Irish Free State, and around 100 to 200 Irish Protestants were murdered.

There was no ethnic cleansing but many protestants weren't willing to live in a country where catholics had equal rights and they could be outvoted (unlike "Northern Ireland" where catholics didn't have equal rights).
The remaining Protestant 3% did rather well.
They had substantially more representation in university education and middle class professions than the general catholic population.
Many retained their RP English accents - so much so that South Dublin became very popular amongst European parents as a place to send their offspring to improve their English.
Times have moved on of course and the general level of education in Eire is much higher.
Ben@Forest
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Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 5:58pm

Re: Royal Succession

Post by Ben@Forest »

ANTONISH wrote: 28 Oct 2021, 9:46am There was no ethnic cleansing but many protestants weren't willing to live in a country where catholics had equal rights and they could be outvoted (unlike "Northern Ireland" where catholics didn't have equal rights).
The remaining Protestant 3% did rather well.
They had substantially more representation in university education and middle class professions than the general catholic population.
Many retained their RP English accents - so much so that South Dublin became very popular amongst European parents as a place to send their offspring to improve their English.
Times have moved on of course and the general level of education in Eire is much higher.
It depends upon what you want to describe as 'ethnic cleansing'. This was written in The Independent in a book review of 'The Story of Lucy Gault' in 2013:

In parts of County Cork, Protestants were subjected to a brutal campaign of sectarian violence. The ethnic cleansing of the Bandon Valley is one of the most odious chapters in our history, though I learned nothing about it at school. It took a Canadian academic, Peter Harte, to reveal the full savagery of the assault in his book The IRA and its Enemies.

It can and should of course be seen in the broader sweep of Irish history - nobody can deny that. But assumptions are made about events in Irish history that are stereotypical - for instance although more Catholics were affected by the Irish Famine this was largely because there were more Catholics - but Protestants were pretty well equally affected. From 'The Journal of Historical Geography':

Far from being a Catholic famine, the Great Irish Famine was a famine of the rural poor. Over much of Ireland this group was predominantly Catholic, and thus the Catholic population was disproportionately affected. However, the impact on Protestants increased in areas with larger Protestant populations to an extent that in mixed areas it is impossible to say which denomination was more severely affected. As a result, the Famine and its immediate aftermath did not result in major changes to Ireland's religious geography. This matters. The Famine remains a defining catastrophe in Ireland's history and has an enduring power to reinforce the stereotypes from which both communities continue to construct their own self-identities. This paper shows that the experiences of the two communities were more similar than either would tend to assert.
pete75
Posts: 16356
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Royal Succession

Post by pete75 »

Ben@Forest wrote: 28 Oct 2021, 10:15am
ANTONISH wrote: 28 Oct 2021, 9:46am There was no ethnic cleansing but many protestants weren't willing to live in a country where catholics had equal rights and they could be outvoted (unlike "Northern Ireland" where catholics didn't have equal rights).
The remaining Protestant 3% did rather well.
They had substantially more representation in university education and middle class professions than the general catholic population.
Many retained their RP English accents - so much so that South Dublin became very popular amongst European parents as a place to send their offspring to improve their English.
Times have moved on of course and the general level of education in Eire is much higher.
It depends upon what you want to describe as 'ethnic cleansing'. This was written in The Independent in a book review of 'The Story of Lucy Gault' in 2013:

In parts of County Cork, Protestants were subjected to a brutal campaign of sectarian violence. The ethnic cleansing of the Bandon Valley is one of the most odious chapters in our history, though I learned nothing about it at school. It took a Canadian academic, Peter Harte, to reveal the full savagery of the assault in his book The IRA and its Enemies.

It can and should of course be seen in the broader sweep of Irish history - nobody can deny that. But assumptions are made about events in Irish history that are stereotypical - for instance although more Catholics were affected by the Irish Famine this was largely because there were more Catholics - but Protestants were pretty well equally affected. From 'The Journal of Historical Geography':

Far from being a Catholic famine, the Great Irish Famine was a famine of the rural poor. Over much of Ireland this group was predominantly Catholic, and thus the Catholic population was disproportionately affected. However, the impact on Protestants increased in areas with larger Protestant populations to an extent that in mixed areas it is impossible to say which denomination was more severely affected. As a result, the Famine and its immediate aftermath did not result in major changes to Ireland's religious geography. This matters. The Famine remains a defining catastrophe in Ireland's history and has an enduring power to reinforce the stereotypes from which both communities continue to construct their own self-identities. This paper shows that the experiences of the two communities were more similar than either would tend to assert.
The passage you've quoted contradicts your statement that 'Protestants were pretty well equally affected'.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
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