Tory dictatorship

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Stevek76
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Re: Tory dictatorship

Post by Stevek76 »

Not I don't agree.

Protests are disruptive, that's really part of the point (not even sure how you're supposed to have a protest march through a city without disrupting traffic?) and the proposed penalties simply aren't proportionate when compared to other crimes.

The amendments are extraordinarily broad and introduced late into the legislative process so bypassing much debate. That they are, in the face of it, targeted at a group that does not have popular support is exactly how nascent dictatorships form out of democracies. There is nothing to stop then being used for any other political opponents later. Supporters of the ruling party will cheer it to the rafters right up to to it's too late.

As for the cost of policing, there's only one thing that's resulted in the rozzers not having the time to investigate small time burglaries and it's not the occasional protest that, at most has been causing only sightly more mess on the motorways than motorists manage to cause all by themselves with rubbish driving on a daily basis.
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Psamathe
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Re: Tory dictatorship

Post by Psamathe »

Ben@Forest wrote: 28 Nov 2021, 9:09am
pwa wrote: 28 Nov 2021, 5:18am The other stuff is mainly to do with dealing with folk who make their peaceful protest by stopping other folk going about their lawful business, which in my book is not peaceful protest at all. It is aggression because it is designed to cause stress to the victims. Stress is harm and that harm is intended. The "protest" is in a good cause but the method of protest has innocent victims and those victims need protecting. Upping penalties seems like a reasonable response. I expect you disagree with that, but even so, you must see that this is not, in itself, an indication of a dictatorship being established. It is a reaction to a specific problem.
Agreed - and that cost of policing is huge. The Metropolitan Police cost of policing the Insulate Britain road blocking protests for one month through part of Sep/part of Oct was £2 million. The Surrey and Hertfordshire Police costs were around £100,000 apiece and it's possible the Essex, Kent and Thames Valley Police forces all spent money too.

Nearly every adult in this country has either experienced or knows someone who has suffered from poor police response in terms of theft, burglary, anti-social behaviour and so on - they generally don't want their taxes spent on removing people who have stuck themselves to roads, let alone having to suffer the inconvenience of it.
I think the situation has got to where it is because successive Governments fail to listen to the people, instead adopting the "we won, we do what we want" attitude. Then protestors are driven to ever more disruptive actions to get attention and heard and ignored. I don't know the Insulate Britain Manifesto but making some assumptions from their name it sounds like a good idea and one that was being done until the Government cancelled it. Listening does not mean doing what everybody is demanding but means recognising their concerns and where valid moving some way towards the better ideas (e.g. stop cancelling insulation schemes and stop cancelling net zero building rules and maintain or improve them).

Ian
thirdcrank
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Re: Tory dictatorship

Post by thirdcrank »

I think governments increasingly listen to the people; we are discussing how they deal with what they hear. In many cases it's no more than spin - telling people what they want to hear. It's some twenty years since I heard a politician (David Blunkett?) saying something along the lines that "We've listened and we will ensure nobody has to sell their home to fund their care." (Small print = "they will be able to take out a loan secured on their home, repayable after their death." )

On HIGNFY this week Ian Hislop pressed Baroness Warsi about the government's latest care proposals and she eventually conceded this still applied. Before this causes a red herring, there may be a case for those with a profit accrued in property to pay. My point is that politicians should explain their policies transparently rather than weasel words
pwa
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Re: Tory dictatorship

Post by pwa »

In theory we could move towards dictatorship, but in practice my feeling is that we are nowhere near having to worry about that at the moment. Boris, far from looking like a dictator in the making, looks like he is ripe for being toppled by his own party in the next year, unless he starts to perform a lot better. Which isn't likely.

Okay, you can say his successor would just take over and continue a slide towards autocratic rule, but even then I see nothing but trouble for any government that tries that. Look at recent events in the Commons, where the Government has had to do U-turns when their intended course has created uproar among the public. That is the ultimate limiter on the power of government, the verdict of the people, expressed through irate e-mails to MPs and through the ballot box. I have done it myself in the past: "I gave you my vote last time round but if you support X, Y, and Z I will not be voting for you next time......". That pressure from floating voters is what limits any Government. It unnerves individual MPs and they pass that upwards to the Cabinet and the PM. It was very evident a couple of weeks back when JRM had to come to the Commons to apologise to Parliament for the Government's ill-considered attempt to save a Tory MP found to have misbehaved. In that situation the PM looked weak. The indignation of the public had reeled him in pretty sharpish, via his own party's MPs feeling anger from their constituencies.

PMs may be stronger within their Cabinet than they once were, but I don't think that means they are stronger within the country. They are still answerable to the public, sooner or later. The current PM looks to me to be a lot less in control than Thatcher did in the mid 80s, and the public opinion that his power must rely on is more fickle and shifting than it was back then. In the 80s it was just about conceivable that the BBC and ITV might become agents of government and project propaganda in place of objective analysis, but today the sources people look to for news are more diverse and will probably stay that way. A PM that cannot control the news cannot be a dictator. And I don't see a PM being able to control the news. The public wouldn't stand for it.
Stradageek
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Re: Tory dictatorship

Post by Stradageek »

I sincerely hope you are right.

However, I worry more that governments are so subservient to both the media and the big corporations (i.e. the very rich) that we have a dictatorship that is much more difficult to challenge.

Or is it? All we need to do is persuade people to stop buying 'stuff' and tax the rich. That should do it.

But how do we run a media campaign that avoids the controlling media and how do we elect a government dedicated to the 99% :?
Jdsk
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Re: Tory dictatorship

Post by Jdsk »

Stevek76 wrote: 27 Nov 2021, 4:57pmJust consider the following:
Staffing changes in BBC news to those consistently favourable to the ruling party
Efforts to get Dacre as chair of ofcom

Elections bill:
Voter ID laws
Reduction in Electoral Commission independence with cabinet secretary power to set 'strategy and policy'
Change of London assembly and regional/city mayors to fptp voting
Power to arbitrarily remove registered third party campaigners
Centralised interferences/depowering of regional bodies (eg TfL, TfN)

Policing bill:
Number of issues with the codification of public nuisance, single person protests etc but just recently, during committee/report stage of the legislative process the gov has wedged in the following:
Specific offences for locking on and obstructing transport works
Increased penalty for obstructing highway to 6 months jail (amusingly this is the same power used for obstructions of the pavement)
Additional stop and search powers, including to do so without suspicion of officer thinks offences may be committed in the local area.
Effective order to ban individuals from committing any further protests.

Those are not the actions of a government that respects democracy and the reality is that the UK's constitutional setup relies far too much on what are effectively 'gentlemens agreements' rather than democratic checks that have actual teeth.
Good list. Thanks.

And there's a lot more to democracy than occasional voting.

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Re: Tory dictatorship

Post by Jdsk »

Stradageek wrote: 29 Nov 2021, 8:35amBut how do we run a media campaign that avoids the controlling media and how do we elect a government dedicated to the 99%
It will never be 99%...

But:

1 Discussing what's happening. Including historical analogies and international comparisons.

2 Being concerned about incremental changes.

3 Supporting publicly funded lifetime education, both formal and informal.

Jonathan
Stradageek
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Re: Tory dictatorship

Post by Stradageek »

I admire your insight and optimism Jonathan.

I have been inspired by a book on the life and works of Errico Malatesta but discouraged by the fact that things have changed so little since his heyday :(
Jdsk
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Re: Tory dictatorship

Post by Jdsk »

Stradageek wrote: 29 Nov 2021, 9:03am... insight and optimism...
Thanks... but it's also based on the evidence!

The relevant data don't fit the news cycle, but if you step back and let your eyes go out of focus there has been massive improvement in democracy, health, education, and quality of life. It's when you get to local difficulties and short timescales that the threats and losses look so appalling. Local being, for example, the UK, and short timescales, for example, since 2010.

But, as above, we should be very concerned about all incremental changes, however local and however short-lived.

Jonathan
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Tory dictatorship

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Jdsk wrote: 29 Nov 2021, 8:56am
Stradageek wrote: 29 Nov 2021, 8:35amBut how do we run a media campaign that avoids the controlling media and how do we elect a government dedicated to the 99%
It will never be 99%...

But:

1 Discussing what's happening. Including historical analogies and international comparisons.

2 Being concerned about incremental changes.

3 Supporting publicly funded lifetime education, both formal and informal.

Jonathan
My reading was that it should not be focussed on the proverbial 1%, rather than should actively be focussed on each individual in the remainder...

What we need is a less bad electoral system. I'd like to see larger constituencies with a handful of MPs in each... 50% of them as locally elected and 50% distributed to make up a proportional parliament.

Advantages:
- Still have local representation (and have choice over some of those individuals)
- You would very likely have a local representative who is more closely aligned with your views and less of a "fob off merchant" like the waste of skin we have here.
- A much more representative parliament is likely to increase turn out and therefore make an even more representative parliament

Disadvantages:
- "Local" representation is a little less local (since constituencies are larger), MPs would need to hold "surgery"s in rotating venues.
- More complex ballot maybe (probably have two papers - local representative and government party being different ballots)
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
thirdcrank
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Re: Tory dictatorship

Post by thirdcrank »

When talking about what the public will accept, it's worthwhile noting that they have accepted quite a lot of increased authoritarian rule "within living memory" introduced by both Labour and Conservative governments (the latter supported by the Lib-Dems incoalition) and there's nothing I can see that will inspire a change. By and large, the public no longer seem to "do" democracy in the sense of taking an active interest and certainly not wanting a fundamental change in the constitution. A lot of people seem resigned to politicians being innately dodgy.

Politicians seem particularly sensitive to what will go down well, but checking to make sure; I think that this is what gives Boris Johnson a reputation for dithering. Eg The current moral panic about migrants crossing the Channel in inflatables. I'd have predicted support for a fleet of fast motor boats swamping them with their wake but it's reported that the RNLI has seen an increase in donations and well done to the RNLI for sticking to its guns (in unarmed lifeboats.) But this just reminds us that public opinion is fickle. There's reported to be a majority in favour of capital punishment but when it came down to it, juries were notoriously reluctant to convict the person whose life was in their hands.

Currently, a prime minister has a huge power of patronage and much of what's caused controversy recently - eg Paul Dacre and Ofcom - has merely been about Boris Johnson and his chums trying to get a bit more. People suggest tweaking things here and there, but a fundamental change would need an American Declaration of Independence event, so our version of the Founding Fathers could get together and make a fresh start. No chance. Boris Johnson
=====================================================
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mjr
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Re: Tory dictatorship

Post by mjr »

Ben@Forest wrote: 28 Nov 2021, 9:09am Nearly every adult in this country has either experienced or knows someone who has suffered from poor police response in terms of theft, burglary, anti-social behaviour and so on - they generally don't want their taxes spent on removing people who have stuck themselves to roads, let alone having to suffer the inconvenience of it.
So don't spend it removing people who have stuck themselves to the roads. Either just remove enough to clear a path through it and wait for the rest to starve to either death or more likely getting themselves unglued, or simply exempt large vehicle drivers from prosecution if they drive over them :twisted: ... that could even be said to be democracy in action because I suspect most drivers would decide they agree with insulating homes enough to find another route until the protesters declare victory and go home.

There are very few legitimate reasons to outlaw peaceful protests.
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Jdsk
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Re: Tory dictatorship

Post by Jdsk »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 29 Nov 2021, 9:43amWhat we need is a less bad electoral system. I'd like to see larger constituencies with a handful of MPs in each... 50% of them as locally elected and 50% distributed to make up a proportional parliament.

Advantages:
- Still have local representation (and have choice over some of those individuals)
- You would very likely have a local representative who is more closely aligned with your views and less of a "fob off merchant" like the waste of skin we have here.
- A much more representative parliament is likely to increase turn out and therefore make an even more representative parliament

Disadvantages:
- "Local" representation is a little less local (since constituencies are larger), MPs would need to hold "surgery"s in rotating venues.
- More complex ballot maybe (probably have two papers - local representative and government party being different ballots)
That would be less bad than what we have at the moment.

And that effect on turnout would probably be associated with fewer safe seats.

But I'd like to see many other improvements, and I won't prioritise because we should address them all...

Jonathan
Ben@Forest
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Re: Tory dictatorship

Post by Ben@Forest »

    mjr wrote: 29 Nov 2021, 1:28pm
    Ben@Forest wrote: 28 Nov 2021, 9:09am Nearly every adult in this country has either experienced or knows someone who has suffered from poor police response in terms of theft, burglary, anti-social behaviour and so on - they generally don't want their taxes spent on removing people who have stuck themselves to roads, let alone having to suffer the inconvenience of it.
    So don't spend it removing people who have stuck themselves to the roads. Either just remove enough to clear a path through it and wait for the rest to starve to either death or more likely getting themselves unglued, or simply exempt large vehicle drivers from prosecution if they drive over them :twisted: ... that could even be said to be democracy in action because I suspect most drivers would decide they agree with insulating homes enough to find another route until the protesters declare victory and go home.

    There are very few legitimate reasons to outlaw peaceful protests.
    I'm not for outlawing protests, and organised protests obviously have a police presence; but according to Liberty:
    • Usually you have to provide written notice to the local police force at least six days before the march.
    • If you want to protest against something that has only just happened, you don’t need to give a full week – but you should inform the police when you can.
    • When you give notice, include details of the timing and route of the protest – and the name and address of at least one organiser.
    • BE CAREFUL: If you organise a protest without properly notifying the police, or give the wrong details, you could be committing a criminal offence.
    And I suspect most drivers just want to get on with getting to work, or running their self-employed business effectively, or their getting their kids to school, or their aged mother to a hospital appointment or...
    cycle tramp
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    Re: Tory dictatorship

    Post by cycle tramp »

    thirdcrank wrote: 29 Nov 2021, 12:36pm When talking about what the public will accept, it's worthwhile noting that they have accepted quite a lot of increased authoritarian rule "within living memory" introduced by both Labour and Conservative governments (the latter supported by the Lib-Dems incoalition) and there's nothing I can see that will inspire a change. By and large, the public no longer seem to "do" democracy in the sense of taking an active interest and certainly not wanting a fundamental change in the constitution.
    I do wonder if the lack of public interest in democracy is based on several factors;

    That for the majority* our basic living needs gave been met (housing, access to food and safe water, freedom of movement, freedom to seek better employment, and basic health care) (*ie those without disabilities, mental health issues and on a living wage)

    That there are too many distractions when not at work, books, magazines, films, theatre, television, website forums.

    An appreciation that positive change in society doesn't have to be politically lead - it could be through a change in technology or a change in a massive adoption of a lifestyle (1 in 10 people, are now apparently vegans. If you had told me that back in 1995 when environmental concerns were beginning to get through my thick skull, I would never have believed you)

    Having been on several political demonstrations in the past, I do question their effectiveness. Especially when everyone now has, through the power of the Internet an ability to reach huge segments of the population.
    It's time to go :-)
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