Heat in the home

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My central heating is set for what range?

I don't have central heating
8
13%
below 18
22
36%
18-20
24
39%
21-22
2
3%
23-25
2
3%
25-plus
3
5%
 
Total votes: 61

Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by Jdsk »

francovendee wrote: 3 Dec 2021, 10:07amOddly enough Ash, despite an impression that the name suggests it smoulders rather then burns is misleading.
Would it help to know that the tree and the residue have different etymology?

; - )

Jonathan
PDQ Mobile
Posts: 4659
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by PDQ Mobile »

Pebble wrote: 3 Dec 2021, 10:12am Problem with Chestnut is, it is hopeless on an open fire, sparks too much, you would need the fire guard up all night. I would have thought it would be fine for stoves if well seasoned, Horse Chestnut burns well. not as good as Oak or Ash but gives off good heat. Our pile for this winter is Ash, Rowan & Silver Birch.
Arguably any wood is "hopeless" on an open fire.
By the nature of wood combustion at great deal of heat comes in the form of the volatile gases.
(Far more than coal which is more of a glowing and radiant carbon type product.)

Enclosed is the only way to extract that gaseous heat, or nearly all of it goes straight up the open flue mixed with cool air and is effectively wasted.

A stove with a big mass is probably the best solution to this characteristic of wood combustion.

Some European (sometimes referred to as Russian stoves) masonry stoves have a mass of some tons!
They effectively store a great deal of the heat from a fast clean initial burn through a large exchange surface area. The glowing carbon component left behind, then has reduced air and flue apertures to transfer even more heat to the stove body.

Such a stove can be up to 85% efficient and is very clean burning.
Though very expensive to build.
A firing once a day usually suffices.

Can be used to bake bread or pizza.
The firebox is typically large, to burn long "faggot" bundles.
The amount of heat energy in a long dry bundle of compressed small sticks (up to 2" or so) is little short of astonishing.

Other increased mass solutions exist and are always worth considering. Just a block of something heavy on or near a wood-burner will help store heat.

In some parts of the Alps heavy soapstone stoves were commonplace because of ready soapstone availability. Soapstone shows little propensity to crack when heated.
Simpler in design but the principle is similar.

My own solution is a cast stove in a big stone inglenook, which when heated, stays warm for a good long time.
Though getting it up to temp, if one has been away, takes a couple of days at least.
francovendee
Posts: 3148
Joined: 5 May 2009, 6:32am

Re: Heat in the home

Post by francovendee »

That's interesting. Our stove is made of cast iron and I suspect quite heavy. Until you get some heat into it there is quite a lot of smoke and no flame. After about 15 min if you add a log it smokes for a couple of minutes and then the smoke turns to flame. The stove then has a good level of heat inside.
I know people, our neighbour is one, who burn wood on an open fire. We've seen the street blacked out from the smoke. He's getting too old to do the work a solid fuel fire takes and has moved over to a petrol stove (I think we know it as paraffin.)
Certainly has the same smell I remember when everone used Esso Blue stoves in the 50's and 60's.
Anyone remember all the fires they caused?
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by Jdsk »

francovendee wrote: 3 Dec 2021, 4:00pmCertainly has the same smell I remember when everone used Esso Blue stoves in the 50's and 60's.
Anyone remember all the fires they caused?
I remember learning the risk factors for carbon monoxide poisoning!

Jonathan
PDQ Mobile
Posts: 4659
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by PDQ Mobile »

francovendee wrote: 3 Dec 2021, 4:00pm That's interesting. Our stove is made of cast iron and I suspect quite heavy. Until you get some heat into it there is quite a lot of smoke and no flame. After about 15 min if you add a log it smokes for a couple of minutes and then the smoke turns to flame. The stove then has a good level of heat inside.
I know people, our neighbour is one, who burn wood on an open fire. We've seen the street blacked out from the smoke.
The idea of being able to store the heat in a hefty mass,from what is essentially a very fast burning fuel (if you want clean burn), is very old.

The hotter the upper part of the firebox the more efficient the burn - all those nasty tars get consumed and they contain a lot of heat calories.
But if you insulate the firebox well then less heat is transferred to the stove and the room.
However if you can extract that heat from a long flueway filled with clean hot gas then it makes good sense.

That is where the masonry stove really wins. One big blaze stored for 12- 24 hours of slow release.
Another benefit is the very long wave radiation from the stove body (because of its mass) which penetrates rooms better than infrared. Convection from the large surface is also high.

Masonry stoves are fascinating. They also offer insights into wood as a fuel; the way there are two components, the volatile gasses, and the carbon (charcoal).
.....
Pellet or chip heating allows measured small quantities (of dry fuel) to be fed into a hot firebox steadily. Combustion is therefore very controlled and efficient.
----
Cast iron (or steel) behaves somewhat differently in that there is rapid transfer of heat to the outside of the stove. Though the mass is often quite high but nowhere near that of a masonry stove.

It works well enough of course.
And the drier fuels are favourable for quick and cleaner "smoke gas" ignition.
Later on in the process though, in my stoves case anyway, more heat is lost because the body of the stove is very hot and transfer of available heat is therefore less.
I have to ease it down (or it would melt) but one can feel the chimney is still carrying far more heat away than when the stove is cooler.
I shut down the air of course but that does reduce combustion efficiency a bit.
My massive and heavy inglenook is a big help to store the heat- keeps the small house warm all day until darkness means a new fire!

It's often really individual, depending upon stove and flue dynamics, to find the "sweet spot" when such a cast stove is up and running hot.
Sweet spot being as complete combustion as possible but restricting the oxygen to just enough to combust the "gases", yet
try to keep the heat in the stove and not rushing up the flue.
The hotter the firebox the better the combustion with somewhat lower oxygen/air supply of course.
I have long considered a flue heat exchanger, the type I am sure you have seen, but is rare in the UK.
Better half thinks them ugly, so I have yet to convince!
......
I don't think that open fires with dry wood are necessarily that smoky. The air supply is, after all, not restricted.
(More smoky than a hot enclosed firebox though.)
However the fuel is used fast and a majority of the available heat wasted.
But open fire people often want a slower burn and often use less than dry wood and very large pieces and then the smoke is bad.
........
Sorry to witter on.
It became a passion after many years of just getting wood from the woods and burning it on and in various bits of dodgy equipment with minimal storage.
I then met a european Masonry Stove maker, a passionate "wood as fuel" man, and he opened my eyes to other possibilities.
He built the modern "Ofen" pictured.
You can see all the access points to clean the flue gas ways. The gasses even pass through the seating bench!


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masonry_heater
710EA4F0-6BA9-4433-9364-B40F7F33983E.png
francovendee
Posts: 3148
Joined: 5 May 2009, 6:32am

Re: Heat in the home

Post by francovendee »

PDQ Mobile. I really like the look of that stove.
We've noticed that we get secondary heat from our stove. Not downstairs but in one of the upstairs bedrooms. The chimney is of concrete with a stainless steel liner from the stove running through it. After a few hours running warmth comes through the wall.
We have a flat plate on four short 'legs' over the top of the chimney but driving rain would find it's way down the chimney causing staining.
A builder friend had a look and suggested closing the gap between the stainless flue and the concrete where it exited to the open. This was done and the heat built up in the wall increased.
He took a good look to make sure no wood would in contact with the warm surface.
The heat in the wall lasts several hours.
ANTONISH
Posts: 2967
Joined: 26 Mar 2009, 9:49am

Re: Heat in the home

Post by ANTONISH »

francovendee wrote: 4 Dec 2021, 8:35am PDQ Mobile. I really like the look of that stove.
We've noticed that we get secondary heat from our stove. Not downstairs but in one of the upstairs bedrooms. The chimney is of concrete with a stainless steel liner from the stove running through it. After a few hours running warmth comes through the wall.

The heat in the wall lasts several hours.
I experience this with my multifuel stove with steel liner, which I use to supplement my oil fired central heating.
I only use it in very cold weather and I've taken to using smokeless fuel in preference to wood.
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Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 56359
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: Heat in the home

Post by Mick F »

Our thermometer thingy arrived today.
Outside unit Bluetooth connected to the internal unit. Battery driven stuff.
IMG_0928.jpg



Meanwhile, the doggie is stealing logs off the hearth. :lol:
IMG_0922.jpg
IMG_0924.jpg
Mick F. Cornwall
philvantwo
Posts: 1730
Joined: 8 Dec 2012, 6:08pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by philvantwo »

Where did you purchase that from please Mick F?
Can you have a 12hr display on the clock?
Pebble
Posts: 1934
Joined: 7 Jun 2020, 11:59pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by Pebble »

Mick F wrote: 6 Dec 2021, 4:59pm Our thermometer thingy arrived today.
Outside unit Bluetooth connected to the internal unit. Battery driven stuff.IMG_0928.jpg




Meanwhile, the doggie is stealing logs off the hearth. :lol:
IMG_0922.jpgIMG_0924.jpg
How accurate is the outdoor one, and how did you calibrate it ?


Our dog used to do that too, liked a good knaw on a chunk of wood of an evening - what a mess, ended up not being able to keep spare chunks of wood next to the fire.
pwa
Posts: 17371
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by pwa »

It has been said that with an open fire 90% of the heat goes up the chimney and is wasted, but with one of the efficient wood burning stoves (with air intake preheated to induce secondary burning) 90% of the heat enters the living space. But they have to be installed correctly for that to happen. If the stove is rammed into a normal, compact hearth with little room around it, it won't get the heat out into the room. We had our hearth enlarged to create space around the stove. Some of the heat that goes up the flue isn't wasted either, because it heats the masonry chimney flue around it, which passes along one side of the bedroom above, so a wall in that bedroom becomes slightly warm to the touch when the stove has been going for a while. The substantial steel mass of the stove gives off some heat for hours after the fire has been allowed to go out, so the end of the flames does not signal a sudden loss of all heat.

When we light the stove we carefully construct the fire with lots of kindling, some of it very fine, and keep air spaces between pieces, so that (using a very small piece of firelighter) the fire accelerates from zero to roaring in a very few minutes. This phase is when the stove is at its smokiest so we don't want to prolong it. After a few minutes, when the roof of the fire box is heated, we close the wheel at the front of the stove to force it to rely on the aperture underneath for air supply. That takes the air through a passage within the stove that preheats it before it enters the fire box, so the resultant hot air intake promotes secondary burning of what would otherwise be noxious emissions. That means more heat and less pollution. The cruder stoves that just have air inlets on the front don't do that.

One thing we particularly value about the stove is that it is completely off-grid, so when we have one of our thankfully rare power cuts we still have a source of heat in the house. If we keep the living room, door ajar that heat gets to every other room, some with more success than others. We can even boil a kettle on top of it if we need to.

If I invested in some chimney sweep kit we would be completely independent when it comes to maintenance too. I already replace worn parts myself. After a few years the baffle in the top of the fire box becomes distorted due to the heat, so I whip that out and put a new one in. The fire brick lining of the fire box benefits from new parts every few years too. One or two other bits have been replaced over the years, just to keep things in tip top condition. Nothing has failed and demanded instant replacement. If the glass in the door gets a bit tarnished we just run the fire very hot for an hour and that makes it crystal clear again. One of the selling points of Clearview stoves.
francovendee
Posts: 3148
Joined: 5 May 2009, 6:32am

Re: Heat in the home

Post by francovendee »

Your method seems exactly like mine.
Before living here I'd only been used to open coal fires, and those were from years back.
People think lighting a fire in a woodburner is a very simple thing. It is simple but unless you follow your methods you'll get a smokey fire that takes ages to warm up.
I was always too impatient lighting mine and tended to put a big log on too soon. If you do this it robs the stove from enough heat to ignite the log. I've learnt now to feed it with thin logs until you have a bed of glowing embers in the grate.
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Mick F
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Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: Heat in the home

Post by Mick F »

Good morning guys.

Bought from eBay.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/154694800880 ... 2749.l2649
I see the price has gone up. I paid £13.00

The issue with it, as far as I'm concerned, is that the Bluetooth system doesn't work with rechargeable NiMh batteries. Works faultlessly with normal alkaline batteries.
It must be that NiMh chuck out 1.2v and alkaline chuck out 1.5v

The outdoor one only has a connection button to press. No calibration, and neither has the inside main unit. The time can be in 12h or 24hr format. There is a max/min button to press that shows you those figures. It would seem - though I've not been through that part of the instructions - that you can reset the max/min.

Talking of instructions, they are rubbish. The "English" seems to have been translated from some odd language or other. Quite amusing! :lol:

Just a sample.
If the registered CH temperature hasn't received the valid signal with the same ID Code in 60 minutes, it will be on for 3 minutes (without removing ID), and the reception fails, and this CH temperature will indicate "--", and then it will receive for 3 minutes/hour (removing ID)

Priority: AL takes priority and then RF
Mick F. Cornwall
philvantwo
Posts: 1730
Joined: 8 Dec 2012, 6:08pm

Re: Heat in the home

Post by philvantwo »

Did you look and see that the sellers based in Hong Kong Mick F?
Cost you a tenner to send it back!
:|
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Mick F
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Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: Heat in the home

Post by Mick F »

The unit came from London.
The seller could be any nationality. All I know, is that it came by Hermes from London.
Had it been coming from China, I wouldn't have bothered.
Ordered on Thursday, arrived on Monday.

8degC outside (north facing on the outside wall of the porch) and 19degC in here. Fire not lit, no heating on.
Mick F. Cornwall
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