More policing by social media

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cycle tramp
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Re: More policing by social media

Post by cycle tramp »

So, in my younger years having pulled out of a t-junction without making sure that the right of way was clear, having then collided with an on coming transit van whilst riding my motorcycle, followed by bleeding heavily while I waited for the ambulance, and then patched up by the nhs... ..I was then rightly interviewed by the Police. At the time the CPS were trying to decide whether I should face either a charge of dangerous driving or driving without due care and attention.

In the end the CPS dropped the pursuit of either charge. Not because they thought I wasn't culpable or because it was some sort of accident. But rather that the minor life changing injuries that I suffered, the write off a motorcycle, plus the pain and, back then, the on going discomfort, was perhaps considered enough of a deterrent for me not to repeat my foolish actions.

I strongly suspect that the same decision has been reached by the police, in this case. That the loss of the tractor unit plus the terrifying experience of being in a collision may be enough for the driver to change his attitudes towards driving. I can only hope so.

Having read that bbc news item again, I can not see the word accident quoted by the police. It is possible they thought the driver foolish, idiotic, or even dangerous, in the same way they would have used the same adjectives to may own earlier behaviour. However, and perhaps knowing that the CPS may not pursue the case, in the same manner as my own experience, the only emotional defence is to make a joke about the situation and save their energy for the next situation.
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thirdcrank
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Re: More policing by social media

Post by thirdcrank »

I'd put a different gloss on your experience, based on mine. I've explained the gradual collapse of traffic policing on here ad nauseam and there's no point in another rehearsal.

That makes no difference really but people on here get upset with cases like the death of Michael Mason and the refusal of the police even to submit a file to the CPS.

I suppose that if it's OK for a qualified HGV driver to drive into the back of another HGV, then for an ordinary driver to drive into the back of something smaller like a cyclist must be a no-brainer to drop.
viewtopic.php?p=867272#p867272

(And yes, I do know that a private prosecution failed but IMO that's inevitable when the jury is aware that the police had decided to drop the case.)
cycle tramp
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Re: More policing by social media

Post by cycle tramp »

thirdcrank wrote: 8 Dec 2021, 10:10pm I'd put a different gloss on your experience, based on mine. I've explained the gradual collapse of traffic policing on here ad nauseam and there's no point in another rehearsal.

That makes no difference really but people on here get upset with cases like the death of Michael Mason and the refusal of the police even to submit a file to the CPS.

I suppose that if it's OK for a qualified HGV driver to drive into the back of another HGV, then for an ordinary driver to drive into the back of something smaller like a cyclist must be a no-brainer to drop.
viewtopic.php?p=867272#p867272
The collision I caused took place during the late 1980s. And reading the news story again, the Police never said that it was OK for one vehicle to collide with another and even used the sentence 'the emotional impact will stay with him longer' to signifying the seriousness of the situation.
I know of at least two persons who were involved in single vehicle collisions and another involved in a collision with another vehicle and in each case their driving behaviour had radically altered by the experience.

Sometimes the law is not required as a tool to change a person's behaviour if it is considered that the outcome of their actions is enough to have already done so.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: More policing by social media

Post by [XAP]Bob »

cycle tramp wrote: 8 Dec 2021, 10:27pm Sometimes the law is not required as a tool to change a person's behaviour if it is considered that the outcome of their actions is enough to have already done so.
Quite true, though the perceived lack of penalty is surely not going to act as a learning aid for others (and we'd really like their behaviour changed as well).

I've said before, and I'll say it again I'm sure, that if we had a graded license system (cf+ motorbikes) then we could downgrade licenses rather than only having the option of revoking them completely, and I think that would likely be a greater deterrent than the vanishingly unlikely scenario of a complete (time limited) ban.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Jdsk
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Re: More policing by social media

Post by Jdsk »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 8 Dec 2021, 11:29pmI've said before, and I'll say it again I'm sure, that if we had a graded license system (cf+ motorbikes) then we could downgrade licenses rather than only having the option of revoking them completely, and I think that would likely be a greater deterrent than the vanishingly unlikely scenario of a complete (time limited) ban.
With a criminal or an administrative process in response to breaches?

(I favour both being available.)

Thanks

Jonathan
mattheus
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Re: More policing by social media

Post by mattheus »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 8 Dec 2021, 6:07pm
Language is important, it shapes the way people think...
Indeedy. It seems you need some assistance in understanding ours. This maybe helpful:

Dictionary
Search for a word
accident
/ˈaksɪd(ə)nt/
Learn to pronounce
noun
1.
an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury.
"he had an accident at the factory"
cycle tramp
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Joined: 5 Aug 2009, 7:22pm

Re: More policing by social media

Post by cycle tramp »

mattheus wrote: 9 Dec 2021, 12:04am
[XAP]Bob wrote: 8 Dec 2021, 6:07pm
Language is important, it shapes the way people think...
Indeedy. It seems you need some assistance in understanding ours. This maybe helpful:

Dictionary
Search for a word
accident
/ˈaksɪd(ə)nt/
Learn to pronounce
noun
1.
an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury.
"he had an accident at the factory"
Thank you, I think we all understand what the word means, but if you travel at a distance behind another vehicle, in which you can not safety bring your own vehicle to a stop, and that other vehicle then does stop, then the resulting collision is not unexpected. It is very, very expected, as dictated by the laws of physics.

Again reading the bbc story I could not find the word accident appearing.
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[XAP]Bob
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Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: More policing by social media

Post by [XAP]Bob »

mattheus wrote: 9 Dec 2021, 12:04am
[XAP]Bob wrote: 8 Dec 2021, 6:07pm
Language is important, it shapes the way people think...
Indeedy. It seems you need some assistance in understanding ours. This maybe helpful:

Dictionary
Search for a word
accident
/ˈaksɪd(ə)nt/
Learn to pronounce
noun
1.
an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury.
"he had an accident at the factory"

In what was is colliding with a vehicle which you are following too closely unexpected...
The collision was entirely predictable, which has the very opposite meaning of unexpected.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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[XAP]Bob
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Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: More policing by social media

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Jdsk wrote: 8 Dec 2021, 11:37pm
[XAP]Bob wrote: 8 Dec 2021, 11:29pmI've said before, and I'll say it again I'm sure, that if we had a graded license system (cf+ motorbikes) then we could downgrade licenses rather than only having the option of revoking them completely, and I think that would likely be a greater deterrent than the vanishingly unlikely scenario of a complete (time limited) ban.
With a criminal or an administrative process in response to breaches?

(I favour both being available.)

Thanks

Jonathan
Breaches would be a case of driving without a license - what's the current process for that?
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Jdsk
Posts: 24640
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: More policing by social media

Post by Jdsk »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 9 Dec 2021, 9:35am
Jdsk wrote: 8 Dec 2021, 11:37pm
[XAP]Bob wrote: 8 Dec 2021, 11:29pmI've said before, and I'll say it again I'm sure, that if we had a graded license system (cf+ motorbikes) then we could downgrade licenses rather than only having the option of revoking them completely, and I think that would likely be a greater deterrent than the vanishingly unlikely scenario of a complete (time limited) ban.
With a criminal or an administrative process in response to breaches?

(I favour both being available.)
Breaches would be a case of driving without a license - what's the current process for that?
I wasn't clear... I'm in favour of an administrative process for the initial removal of the privilege of driving on public roads. I wasn't thinking of breaches after the sanction.

Jonathan
User avatar
[XAP]Bob
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Re: More policing by social media

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Wrong end of stick time ;)

It could be administrative, but there would need to be recourse to appeal - possibly similar to various fines... pay now and you get a 50% discount, challenge and lose, and you're paying the lot.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Jdsk
Posts: 24640
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: More policing by social media

Post by Jdsk »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 9 Dec 2021, 9:51amIt could be administrative, but there would need to be recourse to appeal - possibly similar to various fines... pay now and you get a 50% discount, challenge and lose, and you're paying the lot.
Yes, we need to do it at the level of granting and withdrawing privileges while maintaining legal rights.

I don't know how effective fines will ever be, but IIUC there has been a move towards linking them to ability to pay, as in the Nordic model.

Jonathan
mattheus
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Location: Western Europe

Re: More policing by social media

Post by mattheus »

cycle tramp wrote: 9 Dec 2021, 7:16am
mattheus wrote: 9 Dec 2021, 12:04am ...
noun
1.
an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury.
"he had an accident at the factory"
Thank you, I think we all understand what the word means,
Well you SAY that, but a few people here have persistently supported a different meaning! If they hadn't, I could have avoided the majority of my posts on this thread.
mattheus
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Location: Western Europe

Re: More policing by social media

Post by mattheus »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 9 Dec 2021, 9:34am
In what was is colliding with a vehicle which you are following too closely unexpected...
The collision was entirely predictable, which has the very opposite meaning of unexpected.
The opposite of unexpected, hmmm ...
Is it ... expected? I don't have any formal English qualifications beyond "O" Level, so I'm prepared to learn.

Are you saying the driver expected to crash into the vehicle in front? Help me out here buddy!
thirdcrank
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Re: More policing by social media

Post by thirdcrank »

All the world's a stage, (...) And one man in his time plays many parts ...
Now, mine have included being the obedient public official, applying the law, official policy etc. Even when I had the deciding word on whether there should be any sort of detailed investigation - early 1990s - I'd have NFA'd this crash, marking the accident booklet "Momentary inattention." Had I not done so, I would have been burdening the reporting officer with unnecessary work as the CPS would inevitably have decided "Not in the public interest to prosecute." (And without any evidence about whether the suspect was remorseful or laughing their socks off.) ie I did not have the autonomy to operate my own prosecution policy.

Now, I'm in the role of somebody like Benjamin in Animal Farm with a long experience plus a dose of world weariness.

The RTA 1960 gave no definition of careless driving beyond
If a person drives a motor vehicle on a road without due care and attention ...
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/El ... /3/enacted

Prosecutors, including me, based cases on the HC.

For reasons concerning the more serious offence of dangerous driving, the RTA 1988 has a definition of careless driving
... A person is to be regarded as driving without due care and attention if (and only if) the way he drives falls below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver ...
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/19 ... ection/3ZA

So, I'm saying for reasons really based on the shortcomings of the prosecution system combined with a switch of police resources to other causes of death and injury, we have now reached the stage where shunting another vehicle does not fall below what is expected. At one point, the CPS Guidelines described this as an "objective" standard, but IIRC they soon dropped that. And this isn't restricted to damage only collisions. For a prosecution to succeed for eg causing death by careless driving, the careless driving bit has to be proved first and once it's been accepted that shunting another vehicle is OK, then killing somebody in the process is also ok.

And to reiterate: this is what prompted me to start this thread as an illustration of where we are. I now wish I hadn't.
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