Electric cars

[Mick F]

Some people round here buy an "old banger" ............. as we used to call them ..........as the family car. Many are single parent families.

The local garages keep their cars going with MOTs and repairs, but it's a rather common issue that needing a set of tyres (for instance) writes the car off, so they buy another old banger.

Repeat ad infinitum ............ except that the available old bangers will eventually disappear to be replaced with EVs. Some folk live in flats or terraced cottages, so there's going to have to be an infrastructure built to enable these cars to be charged.

How people in high-rise tower blocks are going to get their cars connected and charged is going to be a monumental task and it won't happen in my lifetime.

[Jdsk]

Some folk live in flats or terraced cottages, so there's going to have to be an infrastructure built to enable these cars to be charged.

With multiple different solutions. I think that we can see examples of each solution out there already. But not at the required volume.

"A lack of chargers could stall the electric-vehicle revolution":
https://www.economist.com/business/a-la ... n/21806663
(may be paywalled).



Jonathan

[Tinnishill]

The idea that battery powered private cars are a solution to global climate disaster is a libertarian capitalist con trick being perpetrated by the kind of billionaire who thinks that it is a bit of a laugh to fire other billionaires into space.

A huge lump of the carbon footprint of a car is fixed by manufacture, regardless of the method of propulsion.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... nt-new-car

https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish ... ims/209636

Battery powered cars are a partial solution to air pollution in cities, not an answer to the existential threat of global warming. In order to reduce the embedded carbon footprint all steel production (for everything) needs to go over to hydrogen steels.

https://globalenergyprize.org/en/2021/0 ... in-sweden/

In order to reduce our national carbon footprint we need to stop buying new stuff and keep repairing what we have got. Consumer protection regulation is needed to force down the artificially high prices of replacement parts.

We could keep our current crop of cars and vans running for another 50 years, but what do we fuel them with, it's not as if non fossil liquid fuels can be plucked out of thin air. Oh, hang on a minute;-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabatier_reaction

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer%E ... ch_process

Synthetic liquid fuels can be distributed and used with the existing infrastructure. The chemists working for the fossil fuel companies have known this since the 1890's. Tell the oil business that they have a clock ticking on them to switch over or go out of business, stand back and watch the rush.

What we need is electrification of public transport and goods distribution, town planning changed to encourage e-bikes and push bikes, battery cars for city and town use and synthetic liquid fuels for vehicles that have to do more than 200 miles a day. Are we going to get that ? No.

[Jdsk]

I agree about the many changes that are needed. And, as above, don't think that like-for-like switching either solves everything or is what will happen.

A huge lump of the carbon footprint of a car is fixed by manufacture, regardless of the method of propulsion.

But for carbon dioxide production the crossover period for a new EV compared to a new ICE vehicle is now surprisingly short. And there's a convenient calculator... if I can find it...

Jonathan

[[XAP]Bob]

But the battery replacement cost are in excess of a car for the majority now!!!!

Really not - where are you getting those numbers from?

For instance - the Leaf costs ~£4k for a battery replacement (£5k, but with the old battery being bought for £1k), whilst a new Leaf is £30k.

The average motorist uses ~£1000 of fuel a year...

[Mick F]

You are talking K's here!

Some people round here talk in 100's not 1000's.
As I said, a set of tyres will write a car off.
Add in battery replacement, and it's a no-no.

[Jdsk]

You are talking K's here!

Some people round here talk in 100's not 1000's.
As I said, a set of tyres will write a car off.
Add in battery replacement, and it's a no-no.

I'd like to see the total costs, including fuel and servicing and taxes, in that comparison.

Jonathan

[al_yrpal]

If you are used to a 6 figure salary its impossible to imagine life in a 3 figure world.

Al

[[XAP]Bob]

You are talking K's here!

Some people round here talk in 100's not 1000's.
As I said, a set of tyres will write a car off.
Add in battery replacement, and it's a no-no.

And those people aren't going to be buying a vehicle that needs a new cam belt, let alone a new engine...

[Mick F]

If you are used to a 6 figure salary its impossible to imagine life in a 3 figure world.

Spot on.

And those people aren't going to be buying a vehicle that needs a new cam belt, let alone a new engine...

Exactly this.
Get the prices down and the ability for the local garage chappy to fix the EV cars, and it'll be ok.

Quantum leap methinks.

[[XAP]Bob]

Local garage chappy can fix them, it's hardly rocket science.

The vast majority of batteries that are failing don't need a wholesale replacement, just one module swapped out.
Even with a variety of modules around, there will be modules available pretty fast.

But when you are looking at cars which aren't worth a new (or part worn) set of tyres then you are looking at the very end of life - and we don't know what that looks like or when it will come for EVs, they simply aren't there yet.

That of course could pose it's own issues for the very expensive, but low capital at any one time, motoring that you describe - there might be a shortage of vehicles for a while if EVs prove longer lasting due to their inherent mechanical simplicity.
The various electrical complexities you associate with EVs are of two main origins: The fact that EVs are still a relatively premium product, and the fact that all modern cars have more computers than is good for them.

[Carlton green]

But the battery replacement cost are in excess of a car for the majority now!!!!

Really not - where are you getting those numbers from?

For instance - the Leaf costs ~£4k for a battery replacement (£5k, but with the old battery being bought for £1k), whilst a new Leaf is £30k.

The average motorist uses ~£1000 of fuel a year...

I’d be interested to see where your figures are coming from please. Instead of new we tend to buy good used cars and beside their limited remaining battery life some EV’s might well suit our needs. If decent sized replacement batteries were available at reasonable prices then that would be important to my decision making process. So where are those prices coming from and where is the marketplace for battery replacement?

Local garage chappy can fix them, it's hardly rocket science.

The vast majority of batteries that are failing don't need a wholesale replacement, just one module swapped out.
Even with a variety of modules around, there will be modules available pretty fast.

Which local garage chap? Mime would be doing it if it were straight forward but he’s not.

Please tell me more about the modules, fault identification and life left in the remaining un-swopped modules. Thanks.

[Jdsk]

Instead of new we tend to buy good used cars and beside their limited remaining battery life some EV’s might well suit our needs. If decent sized replacement batteries were available at reasonable prices then that would be important to my decision making process. So where are those prices coming from and where is the marketplace for battery replacement?

Just to frame the next bit: I'm sure that there are many niches where a like for like replacement of an ICE vehicle with an EV would be very difficult or impossible.

We're now in a different niche from the bangers discussed upthread.

Would your ownership of the vehicle be within or after the manufacturer's warranty for the battery or both? This is often around 8 to 10 years.

What's your approximate annual fuel cost?

And what's your rough expectation of battery deterioration or failure so that replacement becomes necessary? (I've already expressed the view that most EVs will never have their battery replaced.)

Thanks

Jonathan

[francovendee]

I agree about the many changes that are needed. And, as above, don't think that like-for-like switching either solves everything or is what will happen.

A huge lump of the carbon footprint of a car is fixed by manufacture, regardless of the method of propulsion.

But for carbon dioxide production the crossover period for a new EV compared to a new ICE vehicle is now surprisingly short. And there's a convenient calculator... if I can find it...

Jonathan

I look forward to seeing the calculator if you find it.

[francovendee]

I think 'local' garages take ages before they are able to handle new technology. They get there (sort of) but their bread and butter is with tried technology. As soon as enough cuctomers come in with EV's they will start to see a missing stream of revenue.
20+ years ago we had a Toyota that had a dashboard warning light come on. By then I'd given up repairing my cars so took it to the local garage that kept my rusty 13 year old Vauxhall on the road. He told me he couldn't do it as he didn't have the test equipment.
Poor people won't use main dealerships so for years buying a 'cheap' second hand EV will be a step too far for many, even when factoring any fuel cost saving.
Don't run away with the idea EV's are really simple things.
They don't have the complexity of an IC engine but this is not the thing that finally scraps a car. Usually it's an electronic component.