Electric cars

[Jdsk]

What is the percentage loss of electricity within the grid system?

But we're looking at a future with much less fossil fuel contribution and with local inputs and management, including vehicle to grid.

Jonathan

[Carlton green]

We are hoping that the next car that we buy will be electric but are also wary of hidden and glossed over downsides.

I know someone with an old electric car and basically it’s nearly unusable because of its limited range (30 miles and less in the summer) and their lack of charging facilities - no, I don’t know why they bought it either. A replacement set of batteries is also completely beyond their finances.

The belief that battery cars are less complex than ICE cars might be correct but battery management systems and electric power delivery systems have lots of electronics in them and as such repairs can be complex, specialist and costly. Don’t for one moment think that manufactures and franchise dealers haven’t got their eye to lucrative after sales service ...

I’m no longer poor but I certainly know what it’s like to struggle with bills and to suffer from transport poverty. Removal of ICE cars from our roads - which once their new sale is outlawed will happen a lot sooner than we anticipate - is going to push a lot of people into real hardship and very many other people into distress. Whilst I applaud measures to combat greenhouse gases and other environmental dangers the move away from IC engines is going to have a lot of negative consequences that have either been glossed over or never considered in the first place - considering them would take honesty, political will, deep thought and the ability to cut through misinformation.

Is there a better way forward? I don’t decry electric cars but suggest that they are but a small part of a progressive way forward. I suggest that car manufacturers could give us the 60 mpg car and that rather than a total ban on IC engines the sales of new cars that did less than 60 mpg could (instead) be halted. I’d suggest that aviation emissions could be looked at ... if I can’t drive my (economical) petrol car then you certainly can’t fly using aviation gas. I’d suggest that safe forms of nuclear power replace coal powered generation and note that Japan and Germany have moved away from Nuclear instead of sorting out issues with reactor and fuel types - the result ain’t ‘green’. I suggest that we globally move away from all - and especially coal - high load forms of fossil fuelled electric power generation.

[PDQ Mobile]

So given the "laws" of supply and demand and the growth of "cheap" renewables, why do domestic kwh costs keep on rising so steeply?

Because the majority of UK electricity is still generated using gas and nuclear. The latter has never been 'too cheap to meter' and the price of the former has gone up a bit recently

Yes of course gas price hikes have put pressure on prices.
Nuclear costs presumably have risen much more slowly.

Wind (when it blows) is cheap though and has increased in percentage terms a lot in the last half a decade.
Solar is cheap but oversubsdized so the end user without panels is paying those that do have them.

And of course Tesco just giving it away in vast quantities doesn't help the profit margin of the utility companies- those that are left!

[PDQ Mobile]

((Snip only for brevity))

Is there a better way forward? I don’t decry electric cars but suggest that they are but a small part of a progressive way forward. I suggest that car manufacturers could give us the 60 mpg car and that rather than a total ban on IC engines the sales of new cars that did less than 60 mpg could (instead) be halted. I’d suggest that aviation emissions could be looked at ... if I can’t drive my (economical) petrol car then you certainly can’t fly using aviation gas. I’d suggest that safe forms of nuclear power replace coal powered generation and note that Japan and Germany have moved away from Nuclear instead of sorting out issues with reactor and fuel types - the result ain’t ‘green’. I suggest that we globally move away from all - and especially coal - high load forms of fossil fuelled electric power generation.

Yes.
Quite so.
All those great 4x4s with one occupant thrashing up and down motorways and creeping around congested towns.
60mpg is a decent figure.

[Jdsk]

The belief that battery cars are less complex than ICE cars might be correct but battery management systems and electric power delivery systems have lots of electronics in them and as such repairs can be complex, specialist and costly. Don’t for one moment think that manufactures and franchise dealers haven’t got their eye to lucrative after sales service ...

EVs have fewer components than equivalent ICE vehicles, especially in transmission and sometimes in cooling. And wear and tear will be lower. The complex bits of EVs are mostly swap in and out. Low labour costs, and it will be interesting to see how secondary markets develop in areas such as refurbishment.

For many years the EU has been trying to open up after-sales servicing. It's made a lot of progress on ensuring that information is available. TTBOMK there's also been some progress on parts. It's now unpredictable how this will develop in the UK. Making it easier for independents would be good for consumers.

Jonathan

[KM2]

But the battery replacement cost are in excess of a car for the majority now!!!!

[Jdsk]

But the battery replacement cost are in excess of a car for the majority now!!!!

We're very early in the transition. And I'm not expecting that there will ever be widespread replacement of batteries in cars.

(I am expecting that many will have second lives in static use. And be recycled with or without this.)

Jonathan

[KM2]

But how do the poor get to work without cheap transport ?
If the batteries are not cheaply replaced then the cars are throwaway items.

[Bonefishblues]

Batteries won't need replacing in the main - they are proving more durable than previously estimated.

When repairs do need to take place, it's not simply a 'swap out' scenario either - there's an emergent battery repair and reconditioning specialism.

[Jdsk]

But how do the poor get to work without cheap transport ?

I'm not trying to minimise the problem. We need an integrated multimodal transport policy.

(And I don't think that single occupant powered vehicles are the best way to commute however they're powered.)

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

Batteries won't need replacing in the main - they are proving more durable than previously estimated.

Yes. They are lasting well. I'm expecting very little replacement in cars. But tired batteries may come to determine the life of the whole car.

When repairs do need to take place, it's not simply a 'swap out' scenario either - there's an emergent battery repair and reconditioning specialism.

I was referring to swapping other components of EVs... motors, reduction gears, high-current control devices rather than batteries. Some of it will be like the existing trade in overhauling alternators and starters.

Jonathan

[Bonefishblues]

I understand.

Dull fact, but the many original Honda Insights (the properly clever one!) in the UK are on the road largely due to one specialist who has the skills to fettle them at economic cost (and who has about the worst, most legacy-laden website you'll ever see, ironically!):

http://www.solarvan.co.uk/

[Carlton green]

But the battery replacement cost are in excess of a car for the majority now!!!!

We're very early in the transition. And I'm not expecting that there will ever be widespread replacement of batteries in cars.

(I am expecting that many will have second lives in static use. And be recycled with or without this.)

Jonathan

I respectfully suggest that what you’re expecting and the reality now, on the grounds for poor folk trying to get by from week to week, is different.

The country is quite and increasingly polarised between the haves and the have nots. Today I’m amongst the haves but tomorrow who knows, other haves might be well advised to think of others now and question our direction of (social) travel. I think it very important to think how those of very limit means manage to survive in the present - many of them do live hand to mouth or not far from it.

[Jdsk]

But the battery replacement cost are in excess of a car for the majority now!!!!

We're very early in the transition. And I'm not expecting that there will ever be widespread replacement of batteries in cars.

(I am expecting that many will have second lives in static use. And be recycled with or without this.)

I respectfully suggest that what you’re expecting and the reality now, on the grounds for poor folk trying to get by from week to week, is different.

The country is quite and increasingly polarised between the haves and the have nots. Today I’m amongst the haves but tomorrow who knows, other haves might be well advised to think of others now and question our direction of (social) travel. I think it very important to think how those of very limit means manage to survive in the present.

I don't think that we're disagreeing. There isn't a solution that replaces personally-owned ICE vehicles with personally-owned EVs for every niche of use at the same cost and paid for in the same way.

Jonathan

[Carlton green]

I don't think that we're disagreeing. There isn't a solution that replaces personally-owned ICE vehicles with personally-owned EVs for every niche of use at the same cost and paid for in the same way.

Jonathan

And that is fundamentally the problem. We can’t, or rather we certainly shouldn’t, look in the opposite direction and say ‘tough luck’ to the poor. Socially it’s quite the wrong thing to do and, also, one day we too might fall the wrong side of such events.