Electric cars

[Mick F]

In order to work on an EV, you need to be qualified ........... and that will cost money for certificates etc.

At this moment, I could get a job at the local garage fixing cars. Done it most of my driving life. I wouldn't need any qualifications, just a strong pair of hands to use the tools.

Just because these batteries are low voltage, doesn't mean they aren't dangerous. I've worked on low voltage/high current devices and I can assure people it it a dangerous thing to do even with a myriad of precautions in place. Remove watches and rings to start with, as you could become welded to the terminals.

[Jdsk]

I agree about the many changes that are needed. And, as above, don't think that like-for-like switching either solves everything or is what will happen.

A huge lump of the carbon footprint of a car is fixed by manufacture, regardless of the method of propulsion.

But for carbon dioxide production the crossover period for a new EV compared to a new ICE vehicle is now surprisingly short. And there's a convenient calculator... if I can find it...

I look forward to seeing the calculator if you find it.

https://climobil.connecting-project.lu/

It would be great if people could run this with their own characteristics and comparators and share the results.

Jonathan

For example:

[[XAP]Bob]

I think 'local' garages take ages before they are able to handle new technology. They get there (sort of) but their bread and butter is with tried technology. As soon as enough cuctomers come in with EV's they will start to see a missing stream of revenue.
20+ years ago we had a Toyota that had a dashboard warning light come on. By then I'd given up repairing my cars so took it to the local garage that kept my rusty 13 year old Vauxhall on the road. He told me he couldn't do it as he didn't have the test equipment.
Poor people won't use main dealerships so for years buying a 'cheap' second hand EV will be a step too far for many, even when factoring any fuel cost saving.
Don't run away with the idea EV's are really simple things.
They don't have the complexity of an IC engine but this is not the thing that finally scraps a car. Usually it's an electronic component.

And that's the case for your Toyota as well... EVs aren't the only things which are scrapped due to other electronics... the difference is that there is a significant amount of worthwhile to recover hardware. When an ICE is scrapped it's fairly rare for the engine to be lifted and put in another vehicle - I know it happens at scrap yards, but it's rare. For an EV the battery is a set of modules which each have significant value, even if degraded to 80% or lower.

[[XAP]Bob]

But the battery replacement cost are in excess of a car for the majority now!!!!

Really not - where are you getting those numbers from?

For instance - the Leaf costs ~£4k for a battery replacement (£5k, but with the old battery being bought for £1k), whilst a new Leaf is £30k.

The average motorist uses ~£1000 of fuel a year...

I’d be interested to see where your figures are coming from please. Instead of new we tend to buy good used cars and beside their limited remaining battery life some EV’s might well suit our needs. If decent sized replacement batteries were available at reasonable prices then that would be important to my decision making process. So where are those prices coming from and where is the marketplace for battery replacement?

Nissan, via auto express:
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/nissan/89 ... -cost-4920

Local garage chappy can fix them, it's hardly rocket science.

The vast majority of batteries that are failing don't need a wholesale replacement, just one module swapped out.
Even with a variety of modules around, there will be modules available pretty fast.

Which local garage chap? Mime would be doing it if it were straight forward but he’s not.

Please tell me more about the modules, fault identification and life left in the remaining un-swopped modules. Thanks.

Here's one garage that had decided to move with the times - I happen to know of them through their YouTube channel, and they do work all over.
https://www.cleevelyev.co.uk/battery-upgrades/

The fact that your local man hasn't tooled and skilled up means there is low demand, not that it isn't simple.

[[XAP]Bob]

In order to work on an EV, you need to be qualified ........... and that will cost money for certificates etc.

At this moment, I could get a job at the local garage fixing cars. Done it most of my driving life. I wouldn't need any qualifications, just a strong pair of hands to use the tools.

Just because these batteries are low voltage, doesn't mean they aren't dangerous. I've worked on low voltage/high current devices and I can assure people it it a dangerous thing to do even with a myriad of precautions in place. Remove watches and rings to start with, as you could become welded to the terminals.

What qualifications do you think you need?
The batteries are ~450V charged at the moment, so whilst it's "low" voltage in electrical legislation terms they do, as you say, pack a punch - my battery will put out 100kW, which is ~220A, for quite some time.

Most people invest in a good pair of insulating gloves when they work on the high voltage side of an EV (as distinct from the low voltage, 12V, side).

[[XAP]Bob]

I agree about the many changes that are needed. And, as above, don't think that like-for-like switching either solves everything or is what will happen.

But for carbon dioxide production the crossover period for a new EV compared to a new ICE vehicle is now surprisingly short. And there's a convenient calculator... if I can find it...

I look forward to seeing the calculator if you find it.

https://climobil.connecting-project.lu/

It would be great if people could run this with their own characteristics and comparators and share the results.

Jonathan

For example:


Screenshot 2021-11-21 142702.jpg

Just did a comparison between the car I had and the car I have - 25 thousand miles (for UK energy mix), if I was in Norway it would be 10 thousand miles.

[Jdsk]

https://climobil.connecting-project.lu/

It would be great if people could run this with their own characteristics and comparators and share the results.

Just did a comparison between the car I had and the car I have - 25 thousand miles (for UK energy mix), if I was in Norway it would be 10 thousand miles.

Thanks. Isn't it interesting? And obviously quick and easy to do a personal run.

Jonathan

[ANTONISH]

Is there a better way forward? I don’t decry electric cars but suggest that they are but a small part of a progressive way forward. I suggest that car manufacturers could give us the 60 mpg car and that rather than a total ban on IC engines the sales of new cars that did less than 60 mpg could (instead) be halted. I’d suggest that aviation emissions could be looked at ... if I can’t drive my (economical) petrol car then you certainly can’t fly using aviation gas. I’d suggest that safe forms of nuclear power replace coal powered generation and note that Japan and Germany have moved away from Nuclear instead of sorting out issues with reactor and fuel types - the result ain’t ‘green’. I suggest that we globally move away from all - and especially coal - high load forms of fossil fuelled electric power generation.

I agree with this
The 60mpg car already exists.
As my car dealer son points out we could achieve a more rapid reduction in CO2 output if it were illegal to produce an ICE vehicle that didn't comply with this requirement.
It won't suit those who aspire to drive large SUV's etc but at least it would provide a stock of secondhand ICE vehicles for the less wealthy members of the community.
And we could lower motorway speed limits - there is sufficient monitoring to achieve enforcement.
We seriously need to consider how low paid workers are going to get to work in the future.
For decades our transport system has been dictated by the car and road transport industries.
Perhaps Boris has an answer.

[Tinnishill]

by Jdsk » 9 Dec 2021, 10:32am

francovendee wrote: ↑9 Dec 2021, 10:04am

Jdsk wrote: ↑8 Dec 2021, 7:07pm
I agree about the many changes that are needed. And, as above, don't think that like-for-like switching either solves everything or is what will happen.

Tinnishill wrote: ↑8 Dec 2021, 6:10pm
A huge lump of the carbon footprint of a car is fixed by manufacture, regardless of the method of propulsion.

But for carbon dioxide production the crossover period for a new EV compared to a new ICE vehicle is now surprisingly short. And there's a convenient calculator... if I can find it...

I look forward to seeing the calculator if you find it.

https://climobil.connecting-project.lu/

It would be great if people could run this with their own characteristics and comparators and share the results.

Jonathan

Your comparison chart is showing the difference between burning fossil fuel and using batteries. The whole world knows, by now, that we have to stop burning fossils. The three way comparison I was making was between fossil fuel, batteries and carbon neutral synthetic fuel. Extending the life of our current vehicle stock and changing over to synthetic fuel derived from atmospheric CO2 and electrolised hydrogen, with the production process powered by renewable or nuclear energy, makes the whole calculation completely different.

New build battery cars are good for reducing air pollution in cities, they don't make much of a difference to the climate emergency.

[Jdsk]

Your comparison chart is showing the difference between burning fossil fuel and using batteries. The whole world knows, by now, that we have to stop burning fossils. The three way comparison I was making was between fossil fuel, batteries and carbon neutral synthetic fuel. Extending the life of our current vehicle stock and changing over to synthetic fuel derived from atmospheric CO2 and electrolised hydrogen, with the production process powered by renewable or nuclear energy, makes the whole calculation completely different.

Agreed. Are there some worked examples, please?

I expect synthetic fuels to be used in several niches, including aviation. I don't expect them to achieve widespread use in "cars".

But however they develop in the future for many of us the current (!) choice is between fossil fuel ICEs and batteries. Or modal shift.

Jonathan

PS:
"The whole world knows, by now, that we have to stop burning fossils."
Is that true... I see many examples of people claiming that manmade climate change is a hoax or a misunderstanding of the data...

[[XAP]Bob]

by Jdsk » 9 Dec 2021, 10:32am

francovendee wrote: ↑9 Dec 2021, 10:04am

Jdsk wrote: ↑8 Dec 2021, 7:07pm
I agree about the many changes that are needed. And, as above, don't think that like-for-like switching either solves everything or is what will happen.

Tinnishill wrote: ↑8 Dec 2021, 6:10pm
A huge lump of the carbon footprint of a car is fixed by manufacture, regardless of the method of propulsion.

But for carbon dioxide production the crossover period for a new EV compared to a new ICE vehicle is now surprisingly short. And there's a convenient calculator... if I can find it...

I look forward to seeing the calculator if you find it.

https://climobil.connecting-project.lu/

It would be great if people could run this with their own characteristics and comparators and share the results.

Jonathan

Your comparison chart is showing the difference between burning fossil fuel and using batteries. The whole world knows, by now, that we have to stop burning fossils. The three way comparison I was making was between fossil fuel, batteries and carbon neutral synthetic fuel. Extending the life of our current vehicle stock and changing over to synthetic fuel derived from atmospheric CO2 and electrolised hydrogen, with the production process powered by renewable or nuclear energy, makes the whole calculation completely different.

New build battery cars are good for reducing air pollution in cities, they don't make much of a difference to the climate emergency.

I'd argue that they do - they are so much more efficient than an ICE that the actual energy used is far, far smaller. And don't forget that new cars are being made anyway. Yes, we could ban cars entirely... but let's make realistic progress first.
There is no single solution to everything, and BEVs are a very large contributor to the solution.

I can see a couple of interesting developments coming:
- Something like an Aluminium Air battery module would make an excellent range extender.
They can be reasonably lightweight, and whilst not rechargeable they can easily be reprocessed. They also have good energy and power densities.
There will be better technologies, but I see:
A small LiIon battery (15-20kWh) which is sufficient for the vast majority of day to day driving.
A set of replaceable modules which will get used on longer journeys.

AlAir - 200W/kg, and we need about 10-15kW to sustain motorway speeds, so about 50-75kg of battery (two or three 25kg packs)
That would also mean over 100kWh of available energy (i.e. 400 miles of extra range).

The round trip efficiency of an AlAir battery is poor, it's only a little better than an ICE, but it's storage for relatively rare use. If the LiIon battery can be only 30% of the size of a current battery pack then the cost of an EV could easily be lower than an ICE.


I would not be advocating for "day to day" use of an AlAir extender, but it provides the security of long range without ever having to actually dip into it outside of occasional long journeys... And a swap out at a motorway forecourt (or any other suitable location) would be easy enough if they were designed to a common standard.

[Mick F]

What qualifications do you think you need?

Try getting a job as a "jobbing mechanic" working on an EV.

The batteries are ~450V charged at the moment, so whilst it's "low" voltage in electrical legislation terms they do, as you say, pack a punch - my battery will put out 100kW, which is ~220A, for quite some time.

Hence the danger.

Most people invest in a good pair of insulating gloves when they work on the high voltage side of an EV (as distinct from the low voltage, 12V, side).

A car's 12v battery is chicken feed.
450v isn't high voltage, it's the current regulation that is the danger. I suspect that a traction battery will chuck out 500 or 600 amps without blinking an eyelid.
Insulating gloves is a good idea, but you need an insulated floor and insulated shoes too. You cannot risk anything.

[francovendee]

Factoring in the cost of buidling any new car EV or ICE, if you continue to run a ICE already on the road then the carbon footprint would be less.
I'm sure I'm missing something here?

[Tinnishill]

by francovendee » 9 Dec 2021, 5:07pm
Factoring in the cost of buidling any new car EV or ICE, if you continue to run a ICE already on the road then the carbon footprint would be less.
I'm sure I'm missing something here?

Nope, that's it. If you swap the fuel you use over to bio-diesel. bio-methane, bio-ethanol or synthetic fuel then the lifetime carbon footprint for the vehicle becomes lower the longer the vehicle is used. As the production of new vehicles is dependent on high consumption of carbon in the steel making process that won't change until the world steel industry swaps over to hydrogen steels.

As usual, our leaders have backed the wrong technology.

[Jdsk]

Factoring in the cost of buidling any new car EV or ICE, if you continue to run a ICE already on the road then the carbon footprint would be less.

It would certainly move the point of crossover.

It might be possible to persuade the calculator to run that as one of the comparators... is it effectively an energy cost of manufacture for the ICE vehicle of zero?

Jonathan