Electric cars

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KM2
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Joined: 23 Oct 2008, 5:38pm

Electric cars

Post by KM2 »

When electric cars are in the majority, will the poorer members of society be able to drive?
You will not be able to pick up a older car because the battery health is likely to be so poor and people won’t be able to afford replacements.
How’s that going to impact on getting to work?
rotavator
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Location: North Wales

Re: Electric cars

Post by rotavator »

I assume that used petrol and diesel (and hybrid) cars will still be available to buy and use after 2030. Also there is talk of electric car prices coming down to be similar to equivalent ICE cars but we will have to wait and see.
Jdsk
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Re: Electric cars

Post by Jdsk »

It doesn't have to be like-for-like replacement. Some predictions and hopes:
Less personal ownership, more sharing in many different forms
More total service procurement including use of the EV, servicing and charging.
Different vehicles for different niches, which of course interacts with the points above.

KM2 wrote: 6 Dec 2021, 9:25pm ... because the battery health is likely to be so poor...
It isn't looking that way at the moment. And servicing costs are inherently lower than for IC vehicles.

But as with anything else in transport the maximum benefits only come with integrated policies.

Jonathan
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[XAP]Bob
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Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: Electric cars

Post by [XAP]Bob »

KM2 wrote: 6 Dec 2021, 9:25pm When electric cars are in the majority, will the poorer members of society be able to drive?
You will not be able to pick up a older car because the battery health is likely to be so poor and people won’t be able to afford replacements.
How’s that going to impact on getting to work?
The poorer members of society already can't afford to drive.

When these automobiles come in how are poor people going to get their horses...

EVs aren't that significantly more expensive than ICE vehicles.
I looked at the costs very closely when I got my EV - and the only way I could afford to lease was to go full EV, because that was significantly cheaper than getting a dino juice vehicle on the same terms.

Now leasing isn't for everyone, and my lease is particularly good. But the cost comparison is the important bit.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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Mick F
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Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: Electric cars

Post by Mick F »

The poorer members of society round here have cheap secondhand cars to get to work.
Therefore, I agree with the OP.

Secondhand electric cars will be too expensive, and the older ones will be scrapped because the batteries will be too expensive to replace. Cars are scrapped these days, not because they are rust buckets, but because of electronics or a system failure. Too expensive and non-economic to fix.

We sold our Clio some years ago. Bought brand new in 2001, and kept for 12years and done over 100,000miles.
Sold it locally for £350.

Meanwhile, one of the electronic key fobs had packed up yonks back. Only a Renault part, and it would have cost £200 for a new one, so we sold the car with the one key and the bits for the other one.

£350 car with a key needing £200. It's a small step to write a car off just for "bits".

Throw-away society.
Mick F. Cornwall
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Electric cars

Post by Jdsk »

Mick F wrote: 7 Dec 2021, 2:07pmSecondhand electric cars will be too expensive, and the older ones will be scrapped because the batteries will be too expensive to replace. Cars are scrapped these days, not because they are rust buckets, but because of electronics or a system failure. Too expensive and non-economic to fix.
Why would EVs be worse than ICE vehicles?

Battery deterioration isn't looking disastrous and they're inherently simpler than ICE equivalents.

Thanks

Jonathan
Tim Holman
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Joined: 1 Aug 2020, 9:51am

Re: Electric cars

Post by Tim Holman »

Hello all, what about "the poorer members of society" in DRC digging up the cobalt for the batteries that are going to cure the effects of the world's mobility madness? I know technology will move on and get "better" but let's get real. No?
Tim
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[XAP]Bob
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Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: Electric cars

Post by [XAP]Bob »

cobalt isn't necessary for batteries...

Why would an EV battery be scrapped at all?
It's the one thing that is more expensive, and more reusable, than anything in an ICE vehicle.

EVs won't become uneconomical to fix in the same way that an ICE vehicle does - because they are inherently much simpler beasts.
In the event that you decide that a broken dash isn't worth replacing, the rest of the vehicle still has value - particularly the battery.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Psamathe
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Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Electric cars

Post by Psamathe »

Is there another aspect where different people will be paying different rates to "fuel" their EV (charging at home).

Somebody on a good supplier rate (with commitments, direct debits, etc.) will be paying less per kW (and thus per mile is the "same" EV) than somebody on PAYG slot metered electricity or somebody who can't commit to a longer fixed contract ...

Ian
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[XAP]Bob
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Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: Electric cars

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Yes, although one would hope that as we move to a smarter grid... the use of variable rates will increase.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Electric cars

Post by Jdsk »

Yes, and I expect some packaging of energy costs with the use of the vehicle, as above.

Jonathan
Ben@Forest
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Re: Electric cars

Post by Ben@Forest »

To the best of my knowledge there are still a couple of thousand households without power in Weardale and Allendale following Storm Arwen on 26th November. There were several thousands more than this until at 2nd December (when I was last in Weardale). Interesting to get EVs being a practical option in such locations.

And where I live, at a relatively lower level, though still very rural, the electricity supply is not excellent. To be fair for the last ten years or so it has been massively better than the first five years living here, when power-cuts were frequent, if not always lengthy. There were obviously some infrastructure works somewhere which improved the situation. But a non-electric powered heat source (a woodfuel or solid fuel stove) is essential, everyone in a collection of around 10 houses here has at least one. It really shows the difference between what urban-dwellers think and what country-dwellers actually need.
PDQ Mobile
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Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: Electric cars

Post by PDQ Mobile »

My local Tesco offers free charging.

I believe it is just that, free, don't know if there is a time constraint.
Has three or four points, presumably (?) fairly low speed charging.
Shop hours only, so not "off peak".

There's a multi, multi thousand pound Tesla stuck to one point for hours most days.

Meanwhile my meagre usage on a domestic tariff for essential lights and other small consumer stuff (not heat) is climbing up in price for a kwh all the time.

How many of the much lauded (at the time) private suppliers have gone bust in the last 6 months? 20?

And at least half the juice on the grid isn't from renewables.
ANTONISH
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Re: Electric cars

Post by ANTONISH »

My son used to work for Tesla - he is still a car dealer.
He reckons that after eight years the battery capacity will fall to about 90% and in a couple of years more to about 85% when it will be unsuitable for traction use.
As a country we tend to commute longer distances than most others in Europe.
There are large numbers of people reliant on a cheap ICE vehicle to get to work - often the journey is difficult or impossible by public transport if one is to be punctual. Many of these people are on incomes which barely cover their day to day expenses - they are lucky if they have a few hundred pounds available for emergencies. Even if they were given a free secondhand EV that needed a new battery pack they would be unable to raise the cash.
EV's are a nice idea but they aren't a solution - unless you are one of those relatively wealthy.
I can see the UK being like Cuba - keeping many elderly vehicles running far into the future.
Jdsk
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Re: Electric cars

Post by Jdsk »

PDQ Mobile wrote: 7 Dec 2021, 5:13pm My local Tesco offers free charging.

I believe it is just that, free, don't know if there is a time constraint.
Has three or four points, presumably (?) fairly low speed charging.
Shop hours only, so not "off peak".
"They can use the 7kW chargers along with 22kW rapid chargers where available for free, while 50kW rapid chargers are available for the market rate."
https://www.tescoplc.com/updates/2021/t ... 0-charges/

Jonathan
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