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Manx Cat
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Postby Manx Cat » 23 Oct 2008, 10:36am

Well, I must admit I always ask my guests what they will or will not eat.

I would so much prefer to cook a meal that everyone loved and enjoyed, rather than have to gaze as folk glaring into their dinner plate (or starter plate) with a growling tummy.

Im allergic to shellfish I get anaphalatic shock so needing hospitalisation etc if it gets slipped in. So I am very careful with ingredients. But its only shellfish so I havent had an attack since the early 90's. So I am aware perhaps of other peoples dietary needs.

Vegetarian no problem (always up for a challange) and Ive even done vegan but that did cause me to have to buy a book and I was concerned with flavour. My favourite auther for vegetarian food is Sarah Brown, she is proberly really old now, but her books never date at least.

IN regard to restaurants they are usually accommodating if you let them know. Im sure they would prefer perfection than have clients complaining to them and having to re-do a meal. I really havent had much of a problem once Ive called in first. Saying that, we never eat out now so its not a problem anyway.


Maybe Im just easy to please?

But I am also a bit obsessive with my cooking. :lol: And this means I expect others to be as well.


Mary

Peyote
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Postby Peyote » 23 Oct 2008, 10:46am

kwackers wrote:
glueman wrote:It does not carry moral superiority or should imply omnivours have not thought about their food choices.


It's easy to forget that the many hundreds of millions of animals we kill in Britain alone each year exist only for our benefit.
Or how brilliant our farming methods are, caring and compassion abound...


It is very easy to buy ethically produced meat and associated produce these days. Five years ago, free range eggs were a niche product, these days I can buy them in the Happy Shopper down the road! Meat, eggs, dairy produce all of it can be bought and consumed without compromising your ethical position.

glueman wrote:No, I don't believe most have enough idea of what meat production is to be capable of making a moral judgement. But I do find it interesting when people throw in the 'moral superiority' argument, is there just a smidgeon of guilt methinks?


Possibly, even probably these days. I think it's precisely because it is so easy to get hold of products like those I've mentioned above. Most folk who buy factory farmed stuff are looking at the bottom line £££, and trying to ignore the moral questions, hence the guilt maybe?

Personally speaking I've met many vegetarians and have never conversed face-to-face with one who has chosen not to eat meat/dairy from a moral perspective. Pretty much all of them have either medical reasons, or simply don't like the taste! Fair do's in that case, I don't like lamb very much, but I'm a huge fan of venison!

glueman
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Postby glueman » 23 Oct 2008, 11:27am

kwackers wrote:is there just a smidgeon of guilt methinks?


None. As someone else said, I can also afford free range from one of the best butchers in the country with the awards to prove it and 'air' miles on all the produce, generally less than 10 and from named farms I can visit. I've visited an abattoir so I know the deal and I'm 'happy' to kill fish for the pot if they're from a sustainable source. My food outlook closely matches Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall though that's where the similarity ends.

All respect to veggies, I do like animals and abhor intensive farming methods with the dislike of someone who lives in the country. I don't think the moral argument against meat stands up though I'd have to agree some people eat far too much of the wrong sort.
BTW I adore a really good vegetarian meal by a good cook.

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meic
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Postby meic » 23 Oct 2008, 11:57am

I had a friend who did not eat chicken and another who did not eat fish. Both came to visit and while they stayed, guess what we didnt eat those foods. Quite easy not much of a sacrifice for a guest.
Or do we go in for the treatments that Arab sheiks reportedly made their European guests endure. How about lunch with Hannibal Lector :P

Quote Glueman
BTW I adore a really good vegetarian meal by a good cook.

It should not be too dificult for you.

As for moral superiority.
Moral arguments are always won by the side with the biggest army 8)
Yma o Hyd

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bikely-challenged
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Postby bikely-challenged » 23 Oct 2008, 1:54pm

I've been thinking about eileithyia's post about dairy being considered vegetarian since yesterday. I've been vegetarian for many years but can't defend using dairy products. I was vegan for four years in my teens but went back to using dairy products, mostly for convenience. I am going to have to give it up as it has been bothering me for some time and this thread has brought it to a head.

Free-range is obviously better than factory farmed, but it's not possible to produce animal-based products without suffering of some kind. I also don't think it's possible to live without using some form of animal products, even though some people like to kid themselves they do.

I agree with kwackers, any reduction is better than none. My Husband is a carnivore and won't stop eating meat. He eats free-range chicken and eggs and that's the best I can get from him. Not ideal, but better than battery eggs and meat.

BTW, If you don't want to cater for vegetarians, then don't invite them round for a meal. No need for drama :roll:
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DISCLAIMER: The above constitutes my personal opinion only on any given subject. Other opinions are available.

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meic
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Postby meic » 23 Oct 2008, 3:51pm

Is it possible to live without using animal products?

If you can be content with not knowingly, directly using animal products. Then yes, probably.

However as it is part of the society we are born into, indirect use of animal products is unavoidable. The postman wears leather shoes :?

I often eat Turkish Delight but when one packet declared in the ingredients PORK gelatin, I decided I could forgoe the pleasure. If it had just said gelatin I would have ate it!

However action has paid off. Mars dropped their plans to use animal products in their bars when the Vegetarian Society publicised the fact very loudly.
Yma o Hyd

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bikely-challenged
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Postby bikely-challenged » 23 Oct 2008, 4:29pm

meic wrote:Is it possible to live without using animal products?

If you can be content with not knowingly, directly using animal products. Then yes, probably.



That doesn't make sense to me.

If someone is unknowingly using animal products then they aren't living without animal products. They just think they are.
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DISCLAIMER: The above constitutes my personal opinion only on any given subject. Other opinions are available.

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jan19
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Postby jan19 » 23 Oct 2008, 6:12pm

Tricky sometimes isn't it? We're not vegetarians, although we do try to buy free range or well-reared (one of the reasons I swopped my shopping to Waitrose as I trust them more than the other supermarkets). I do have a trusted veggie recipe (with gnocchi and capers) which is yummy and which comes out if we have new veggie friends round. We normally put Parma Ham in, but it stands ok without.

Low fat too... :D

Jan

pete75
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Postby pete75 » 23 Oct 2008, 6:19pm

kwackers wrote:
glueman wrote:It does not carry moral superiority or should imply omnivours have not thought about their food choices.


It's easy to forget that the many hundreds of millions of animals we kill in Britain alone each year exist only for our benefit.
Or how brilliant our farming methods are, caring and compassion abound...

I think the statement about moral superiority simply implies you haven't bothered looking and/or just don't care.


Do I feel morally superior to meat eaters? No, I don't believe most have enough idea of what meat production is to be capable of making a moral judgement. But I do find it interesting when people throw in the 'moral superiority' argument, is there just a smidgeon of guilt methinks?


Not guilt though I find it somewhat ironic to be told by a vegetarian wearing leather shoes that "meat is murder".
There's a few reason not to eat meat, you think it's unhealthy, you just don't like the taste or you have moral qualms about the welfare and exploitation of animals. If it's the latter then surely a vegan lifestyle is the only real choice.

kwackers
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Postby kwackers » 23 Oct 2008, 6:20pm

glueman wrote:I don't think the moral argument against meat stands up though I'd have to agree some people eat far too much of the wrong sort.


I suspect the moral argument may well vary from person to person.

For me personally, I sum it up like this:-

How can it be right to kill something just because I like the way it tastes?

kwackers
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Postby kwackers » 23 Oct 2008, 6:34pm

pete75 wrote:Not guilt though I find it somewhat ironic to be told by a vegetarian wearing leather shoes that "meat is murder".
There's a few reason not to eat meat, you think it's unhealthy, you just don't like the taste or you have moral qualms about the welfare and exploitation of animals. If it's the latter then surely a vegan lifestyle is the only real choice.



As I said previously, any form of meat reductionism is a good thing. To expect the public at large to become vegan is nonsensical - it will never happen. Ideals are to be strived towards and praised not dismissed out of hand.

We're all guilty of double standards, such is the human condition. To use others double standards as an excuse is just feeble.

Simply put we eat far too much meat, and as a side effect of the mass production required we lose sight of the fact that animals aren't meals on legs. They require to live in a manner that suits them both physically and psychologically and if we're going to kill them for their meat/skin/whatever then at the very least we could treat them properly and that can't happen when the value of an animal is simply how cheap can you buy a leg?

pete75
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Postby pete75 » 23 Oct 2008, 6:35pm

kwackers wrote:How can it be right to kill something just because I like the way it tastes?


Mmmm harvesting, cooking and eating plants kills them..........

kwackers
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Postby kwackers » 23 Oct 2008, 6:40pm

pete75 wrote:
kwackers wrote:How can it be right to kill something just because I like the way it tastes?


Mmmm harvesting, cooking and eating plants kills them..........



That old chestnut... :roll:

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bikely-challenged
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Postby bikely-challenged » 23 Oct 2008, 7:16pm

pete75 wrote:Not guilt though I find it somewhat ironic to be told by a vegetarian wearing leather shoes that "meat is murder".


AFAIK, nobody has yet invented a material with all the properties of leather at an affordable price. Shoes are essential in our climate, meat is a choice. My everyday shoes are of man made materials (and quite crappy btw). However, my hiking boots are leather, 9 years old and need replacing. I can't find decent non-leather ones.

Perhaps I should do as that very wise man Jeremy Clarkson once suggested and wear shoes made of hollowed out courgettes.
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DISCLAIMER: The above constitutes my personal opinion only on any given subject. Other opinions are available.

pete75
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Postby pete75 » 23 Oct 2008, 7:25pm

bikely-challenged wrote:
pete75 wrote:Not guilt though I find it somewhat ironic to be told by a vegetarian wearing leather shoes that "meat is murder".


AFAIK, nobody has yet invented a material with all the properties of leather at an affordable price. Shoes are essential in our climate, meat is a choice. My everyday shoes are of man made materials (and quite crappy btw). However, my hiking boots are leather, 9 years old and need replacing. I can't find decent non-leather ones.

Perhaps I should do as that very wise man Jeremy Clarkson once suggested and wear shoes made of hollowed out courgettes.


You're missing the point.....


For non leather walking boots try Green vee http://www.greenvee.com/products.html . Their boots are made by Altberg - pne of the best makers of walking boots. Altberg will also make their boots in a leather substitue(Lorica) to order.