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kwackers
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Postby kwackers » 27 Feb 2009, 8:33pm

Hector's House wrote:Also, the fact that when crisis strikes many people do turn to God shows that deep down they really do believe in some sort of being, even if they tell themselves they don't.


Desperation, not a deeply seated belief.

God doesn't wave a wand... no... he doesn't... but he does give generously... (and, I believe, hilariously, when he answers a prayer). He answers a prayer and he answers it fully.


But in a statistically undetectable way.

thirdcrank
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Postby thirdcrank » 27 Feb 2009, 8:55pm

numbnuts wrote:It always amazes me how long these threads last on religion it seems to me that the non believers have to gather in a corner to convince themselves that there is no God.
The way I see it when I die and I find out that there is no afterlife, no heaven, no God what have I lost nothing at all, but if the church teaching have made me a better person in my life then it has won the day it is as easy as that. With out God and the church I may have been the same as I am now a normal adjusted person, but what if I wasn't.......


I really do think you are looking at this down the wrong end of the telescope. You are looking at this purely from the point of view of somebody who has Faith. The fact that some of us - and I've never personally got together in a corner or out of one with anybody about this - don't have Faith does not mean we somehow have a sort of Unfaith.

I'm sure a lot of people pray and do all sorts of panic-stricken things in the face of death. That does not prove the existance anything, anymore than the people who pray out of habit and upbringing.

I'm sure I should feel a lot more comfy if I could believe that there was more after this life. On the other hand, I presume that for anybody whose happiness depends on it, every outwardly rational person who expresses doubt inadvertantly undermines that happiness.

Hector's House
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Postby Hector's House » 27 Feb 2009, 9:11pm

kwackers wrote:
Hector's House wrote:Also, the fact that when crisis strikes many people do turn to God shows that deep down they really do believe in some sort of being, even if they tell themselves they don't.


Desperation, not a deeply seated belief.


Ah, you almost have me there. The question is, why choose God?

kwackers wrote:
hector's house wrote:God doesn't wave a wand... no... he doesn't... but he does give generously... (and, I believe, hilariously, when he answers a prayer). He answers a prayer and he answers it fully.


But in a statistically undetectable way.


Last time I checked it's incredibly difficult to do quantative reseach about what people believe... So where're the stats?

God becomes easier to see... but sometimes it's still darn hard. Which is why Paul wrote that we are to "pray constantly and watchfully". If we blink we may've missed an answer!

kwackers
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Postby kwackers » 27 Feb 2009, 9:30pm

Hector's House wrote:Ah, you almost have me there. The question is, why choose God?



Indoctrination from youth - difficult to shake. But ultimately why not? If you're in a position where nothing man made is going to help why not try to enlist the help of a superbeing however unlikely they are to exist? There's nothing to lose.
From a personal perspective under those conditions I'm unsure what I'd do, would I appeal to God even though I'm as absolutely sure as it's possible for me to be he doesn't exist? Possibly... As I said years of indoctrination as a child means there's probably something deep seated somewhere in my brain...

Last time I checked it's incredibly difficult to do quantative reseach about what people believe... So where're the stats?

God becomes easier to see... but sometimes it's still darn hard. Which is why Paul wrote that we are to "pray constantly and watchfully". If we blink we may've missed an answer!


That's not really what I meant. What I'm saying is that statistically praying doesn't show up any advantages, (actually I appreciate that it's not that simple, various studies show very slight positive and negative results. But taken as a whole there's no clear cut indication.)

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Postby patricktaylor » 27 Feb 2009, 9:55pm

kwackers wrote:... Indoctrination from youth - difficult to shake ...

Not in my experience.
Last edited by patricktaylor on 27 Feb 2009, 10:16pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Hector's House » 27 Feb 2009, 10:07pm

kwackers wrote:....


fair point... You have me now!


kwackers wrote:That's not really what I meant. What I'm saying is that statistically praying doesn't show up any advantages, (actually I appreciate that it's not that simple, various studies show very slight positive and negative results. But taken as a whole there's no clear cut indication.)


:? Where are these studies?

Speaking from a personal view, I know I have prayed for others and had prayers be answered. I know I've got some in my prayer book, but I know there are others. Today, a friend of mine told me that a letter i had sent her this week was an answer to prayer, 'cause without knowing the full situation (as I hadn't seen her in six weeks), i had written something that confirmed what another friend had told her at the weekend.

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Postby Jeckyll_n_Snyde » 27 Feb 2009, 10:18pm

Hector's House wrote:'cause without knowing the full situation (as I hadn't seen her in six weeks), i had written something that confirmed what another friend had told her at the weekend.

I think it's called a "coincidence" .......got nothing to do with praying or nonsence written in a book.
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Michael R
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Postby Michael R » 27 Feb 2009, 10:18pm

patricktaylor wrote:
kwackers wrote:... Indoctrination from youth - difficult to shake ...

Not in my experience.


never indoctrinated

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Jeckyll_n_Snyde
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Postby Jeckyll_n_Snyde » 27 Feb 2009, 10:44pm

PW wrote:The sooner it is stamped out worldwide the better.

I agree with you, but it cant come soon enough IMO (of which i'm entitled to); here's one lowlife scumbag who doesn't deserve to be associated with the church. I could say more on this "representative" of *od but children visit this forum.
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Michael R
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Postby Michael R » 27 Feb 2009, 10:50pm

Jeckyll_n_Snyde wrote:
PW wrote:The sooner it is stamped out worldwide the better.

I agree with you, but it cant come soon enough IMO (of which i'm entitled to); here's one lowlife scumbag who doesn't deserve to be associated with the church. I could say more on this "representative" of *od but children visit this forum.


I thought you were going to say Fred Phelps.

Look up Landover Baptist church , it sums up some american churches!

But I hasten to add only a few.
Last edited by Michael R on 27 Feb 2009, 11:14pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Jeckyll_n_Snyde
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Postby Jeckyll_n_Snyde » 27 Feb 2009, 11:03pm

Michael R wrote:Look up Landover Baptist church

I did, i must admit that i didn't have my glasses on and i saw LandRover until i went to Wikipedia and no mention of 4x4's... interesting reading though, put a smile on my face.
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eileithyia
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Postby eileithyia » 27 Feb 2009, 11:29pm

Without trying to be too drawn in to the religious debate I heard a strange story today, and without trying to compromise confidentiality. Not at my hospital you understand.

A preventable condition went untreated because the person believed god would provide the right answer. Person was deemed psychiatrically in sound mind, they just had very strong views from a particular sect of christianity. Inevitably a fatality occured and the chaplain was asked to attend, their attitude to the situation was that the person(s) should have been referred to him 4 weeks earlier and he would have intervened and sorted out the "backward heathen, mumbo jumbo approach to religion!!!!!!

This strikes me as a very blinkered view of life. The person was entitled to be respected to make their own decision and despite it being distressing, hospital staff supported that view. Seems to me that the chaplain had no right express such an attitude, he was there to provide the necessary support required by the bereaved and the staff. The attitude smacks of early missionary ideology; let's convert all the savage heathens, for they have no proper idea about religion etc.
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Jeckyll_n_Snyde
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Postby Jeckyll_n_Snyde » 28 Feb 2009, 12:27am

eileithyia wrote: A preventable condition went untreated because the person believed *od would provide the right answer. Person was from a particular sect of christianity. Inevitably a fatality occured

A real shame.

Anyhow I assume the "particular sect of chrisianity" are these Cockroaches , they make me sick; they'd rather for example let little Jonnie die than receive help e.g. a blood transfusion that would save little Jonnie's life. But hey isn't religion a wonderful thing.
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dan_b
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Postby dan_b » 28 Feb 2009, 1:14am

eileithyia wrote: This strikes me as a very blinkered view of life. The person was entitled to be respected to make their own decision

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the usual buzzword "informed consent"? It seems to me that if the patient was essentially acting on false information (that god would save him/her directly, not through human agency) and the chaplain could have sorted that out, he had a duty to do so.

If the patient had actually wanted to die, that would be another matter, but from the way you tell it I get the impression that he/she wanted to live and was expecting divine intervention to that end.

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Postby emergency_pants » 28 Feb 2009, 1:45am

Personally, I think most people on planet Earth should have a bit more respect for other people's religion, belief, non-religion, whatever you wish to call it - and try to understand each other with more tolerance and understanding, instead of pointing fingers and approaching things with a 'them and us' mentalilty. People die because of their belief... not just religious belief either. This isn't aimed at anyone, by the way... do you think someone doesn't have feelings just because they have a different belief? Think they don't hurt? They don't feel that pain? If you believe in a God and you believe God may take your son or daughter away from you, rather than heal, how painful must that feel? How deep must your belief and trust in God be?

:cry:

If you don't like it when a religious person approaches you in the street and tries to force feed you their belief, then think how it must feel to a person in a critial life situation, when someone walks up to them and tells them they are wrong! :(

Whatever reasons someone has - for any decision based on religious or non-religious belief (someone who wishes God to take them as He has chosen or someone who wishes to be left to die from a terminal illness, rather than be treated or someone who wishes to end their life early before vegetative/crippling effects take hold?), it's not right to judge as if you are better, wiser more educated or more righteous than them. As long as they are of sound mind. It's a matter of respect.

Thats my take on it.