togglechaintour bikes

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robc02
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Re: togglechaintour bikes

Postby robc02 » 16 Jan 2011, 2:44pm

Not fair, Steve B, you've been having all the fun

It all looks very "FM" so not hugely surprised it's exploded out through the shell. The FM got quite a reputation for doing the same thing, as Mike Smith is about to find out


Yes, it does look a bit FM at first sight, but, according to Tony Hadland (p124 of his excellent book - The Sturmey Archer Story):

"it was the ratchet cut into the LH ball cup that had a tendency to fail, resulting in a low gear pawl bursting through the alloy shell. .........at least three different versions of this ratchet were manufactured, presumably in a bid to overcome the problem. One version used a traditional ramped ratchet; the others were merely slots cut into a cylindrical projection of the ball cup. The slotted versions seem the most suspect."

Steve's diagnosis is different to this, in that the pawl's retaining pin sheared, allowing the pawl to come adrift, get jammed and forced through the shell.

Steve, is the low gear ratchet intact?

Whether Mike Smith experiences this first hand... we'll just have to wait. Perhaps, for a bit of fun, we could run a book?

I couldn't possibly end this post without pointing out that the FM ratios are perhaps the best spaced of all SA hubs - certainly of that era, and it should be no surprise that they are sought after, despite the known reliability problem. The gear change from 2nd to 1st is a little slow - you can feel the clutch engaging when the alignment is correct (as on other four speeds), and the gear cable tension has to be just right to prevent slippages.

I have two FM hubs, a 1953 alloy shelled model with the ramped ratchet and a 1960's steel shelled model with the slotted ratchet. The former is in regular use, the latter a spare - bought on Ebay for a bargain price. An alloy shelled one would have cost a lot more.


Long live the FM - king of hub gears.

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Greybeard
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Re: togglechaintour bikes

Postby Greybeard » 16 Jan 2011, 3:17pm

GrahamNR17 wrote:I'm having trouble finding any resources for dating BSA frames. Anyone know of anything?


That sounds about right - there are very few records of BSA numbers and what there are show no logical pattern. My 26 inch frame roadster is pre-WW1 but thats only based on fittings and general design/finish. You may have better luck with later ones that the old catalogues may still be around to help with, but don't hold your breath for too long :wink:

Steve

steve browne
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Re: togglechaintour bikes

Postby steve browne » 16 Jan 2011, 3:30pm

robc02 wrote:Steve, is the low gear ratchet intact?
.


Yes, minimal scoring from the pawl riding over the ratchet but no mechanical disruption to the steel insert with which the end of the pawl engages. The hole was punched adjacent to the ratchet once the pawl had slipped its moorings (this turn of phrase being the sum total of my nautical contribution to the thread)!

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MikewsMITH2
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Re: togglechaintour bikes

Postby MikewsMITH2 » 16 Jan 2011, 3:33pm

I don't actually have an FM. What I am planning to try is an FW mech inside a 1951 FM alloy shell. (which currently has an AW in it) :shock:
S.O.S - Save Our Steel!
1971 Raleigh Mercury
2010 Condor Fratello
1980 Peugeot Tandem
1989 MBK Aventure MTB
195? Viking Severn Valley
1951 Raleigh Lenton Sports
See them here http://tinyurl.com/Mikewsmiths-Bikes

GrahamNR17
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Re: togglechaintour bikes

Postby GrahamNR17 » 16 Jan 2011, 3:47pm

Greybeard wrote:
GrahamNR17 wrote:I'm having trouble finding any resources for dating BSA frames. Anyone know of anything?


That sounds about right - there are very few records of BSA numbers and what there are show no logical pattern. My 26 inch frame roadster is pre-WW1 but thats only based on fittings and general design/finish. You may have better luck with later ones that the old catalogues may still be around to help with, but don't hold your breath for too long :wink:

Steve

From rear stay shape, and the shape/position of the pump lugs and size, I'm currently thinking Sports Tourer, but seems a bit heavy for that. Still downloading original brochures... but it ain't 26tpi, so I'll forgive it anything 8)

Edwards
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Re: togglechaintour bikes

Postby Edwards » 16 Jan 2011, 3:51pm

MikewsMITH2 wrote:I don't actually have an FM. What I am planning to try is an FW mech inside a 1951 FM alloy shell. (which currently has an AW in it)


Is this some sort of secret code? If SA is Sturmey Archer then may I ask, what is FM FW and AW.

I have heard of FM SW MW and LW radio frequencies. :?
Keith Edwards
I do not care about spelling and grammar

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corshamjim
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Re: togglechaintour bikes

Postby corshamjim » 16 Jan 2011, 3:52pm

A brief up date on my attempt to fix my XL-RD5(W) ...

I've managed to disassemble it ok - no visible signs of damage except I wrecked one of the circlips so have ordered some from the bearing boys along with some circlip pliers and a cheap grease gun.

I'm now just awaiting delivery of the grease before I clean up the parts which might have been stuck, pack some more grease in, reassemble and see if that has freed things up. It will be next weekend at least before I can do that as there's no artificial light in my garage to work by.

In the process of disassembly I couldn't work out which part I was supposed to remember aligned with which, so reassembly might be a bit 'experimental'. :roll: I've kept most of the parts on the bench in the order they came off though so am reasonably optimistic. :)
ToggleChain Tourist - http://www.togglechaintour.co.uk/

GrahamNR17
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Re: togglechaintour bikes

Postby GrahamNR17 » 16 Jan 2011, 3:52pm

robc02 wrote:I couldn't possibly end this post without pointing out that the FM ratios are perhaps the best spaced of all SA hubs

Absolutely no doubt about it. They do themselves a major disservice but not having a similarly spaced 5 speed available today. I believe the Taiwanese engineering skills are easily up to the task, and they'd make a fine job of it.

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hubgearfreak
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Re: togglechaintour bikes

Postby hubgearfreak » 16 Jan 2011, 3:59pm

Edwards wrote:FM FW and AW.


FM four speed, medium ratio
FW four speed, wide ratio
FC four speed, close ratio
AW three speed, wide ratio
AM three speed, medium ratio
AC three speed, close ratio
AB three speed, wide ratio & brake
AG three speed, wide ratio & generator

& etc. here's a bigger list

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer.html

GrahamNR17
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Re: togglechaintour bikes

Postby GrahamNR17 » 16 Jan 2011, 4:10pm

I think we need to create an award and send it to Sturmey Archer. The AW hub gear is quite probably the best bicycle gear, bar none, in the whole world. Ever. As an example of long lasting "does what it says on the tin without complaint and puts up with numpty owners that don't look after things", there is nothing else in the world that even comes close :mrgreen:

And that is not just my opinion, but a matter of unarguable fact :D

robc02
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Re: togglechaintour bikes

Postby robc02 » 16 Jan 2011, 5:30pm

MikewsMITH2 wrote:I don't actually have an FM. What I am planning to try is an FW mech inside a 1951 FM alloy shell. (which currently has an AW in it) :shock:


Then you won't suffer the FM failure, and running a book will be completely pointless!

robc02
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Re: togglechaintour bikes

Postby robc02 » 16 Jan 2011, 5:36pm

GrahamNR17 wrote:
robc02 wrote:I couldn't possibly end this post without pointing out that the FM ratios are perhaps the best spaced of all SA hubs

Absolutely no doubt about it. They do themselves a major disservice but not having a similarly spaced 5 speed available today. I believe the Taiwanese engineering skills are easily up to the task, and they'd make a fine job of it.


...but they do an eight speed, the middle 6 of which are spaced about 13 - 14% apart, just like the FM (and Rohloff). The jump to the two extreme gears is much larger. The logic, presumably, is that when you need bottom you might need a low bail out and when you need top you might need an overdrive. Personally, I'd prefer 13 -14% all the way through.

Like you, a five speed medium ratio would do me fine.

robc02
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Re: togglechaintour bikes

Postby robc02 » 16 Jan 2011, 5:49pm

MikewsMITH2 wrote:I don't actually have an FM. What I am planning to try is an FW mech inside a 1951 FM alloy shell. (which currently has an AW in it) :shock:


It's just occurred to me :idea: - I don't think this will work. The AW works because it doesn't have pawls on the left hand side so doesn't need a ratchet in the left ball cup. The FW does have pawls on the left hand side but they are in a different position to those on the FM. The FM has a secondary epicyclic gear, the gear ring for which is cut into the ball cup, as is the ratchet. The FW ball cup has a ratchet only, no gear ring teeth.

Here is the FM:
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hadland/sa/safm.pdf

and here the FW:
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hadland/sa/safw.pdf

In my opinion, the only thing to do with an FM shell is to fit FM innards!

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Greybeard
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Re: togglechaintour bikes

Postby Greybeard » 16 Jan 2011, 6:44pm

Greybeard wrote:On the plus side - it's a vintage bike ride tomorrow :P


Well, tomorrow's been and nearly gone :? Did the ride - only 15 miles or so but on an old bike and in the weather that arrived half way through the trip, it was more than enough :| The hardy troupe, 15 stalwarts in total, included two 19th Century Ordinaries, a 1910 Rover, a 1937 Hobbs and mine and Mrs GB's 1930's Raleighs. Miss GB decided to use her modern Merida rather than the Pedersen given the gusty wind and her unfamiliarity with the bike, but wasn't too much out of place amongst the younger members.
Things started off well enough despite the prospect of an 18-20mph head wind on the home leg. A lovely little cafe stop in Millington (note made for potential Toggley ride) followed by a really pleasant run through a quiet valley in the heart of the Wolds. A cracking series of downhill hairpins into the valley (made more interesting by a liberal sprinkling of mud and the damp road surface), followed by a short punishing climb out at the the other end - SA K3 was working hard and well :) .
At this point the weather looked like closing in, it not having checked with the BBC before hand presumably so we decided to cut the planned route a little short and head for home. Then began a 4 1/2 mile climb against the wind up the highest point on this part of the Wolds - a belter of a viewpoint in clear weather. About a mile into the climb, the rain started with a horizontal vengance - I wasn't the only one who'd not packed a waterproof :oops: In fact nobody had :roll: The bonus downhill 2 mile run, occasionally at speeds well in excess of 30mph, passed almost unseen as the old specs took on the role of a near monochrome kaleidoscope.
By the time I got back to the car I wasn't sure whether I'd been for a ride or a swim :shock: Still, it was a proper ride out in the fresh air and not just another miserable work-and-home grind that has been the norm for last few weeks :P

Steve (wots still all wrinkly and moist)

GrahamNR17
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Re: togglechaintour bikes

Postby GrahamNR17 » 16 Jan 2011, 7:03pm

Greybeard wrote:Steve (wots still all wrinkly and moist)

Oi, less of that, thankyou :evil:

Sounds like a really fabulous day, save for the weather. Does it do that all the time up there? :shock:

I've not been on a proper ride for ages, so I'm taking Frankenbike to work the long way round tomorrow. Might as well have a ride and get paid for it 8)

Now, if there's anyone that lives somewhere warm and mostly dry, please step forward and volunteer for TCT3 before the wet Yorkshireman does :lol: