Should they get in the car?

[eileithyia]

Very difficult! I would suggest a 12 yr old is probably not worldly wise enough to understand/know if an ID card was genuine, indeed would any of us?
Def should not but then we teach children to trust certain people ie Police, Teachers, Caretakers and not to trust "strangers". Sad fact; most children are abused/harmed by someone they know or believe they can trust. (2 young girls with their caretaker in Soham).

Might be best if child was taught to ask said police officer to phone parents regarding th esituation, if they are then unwilling to do so, then not to trust the person.

[Mick F]

Warrant cards are pretty much useless because most law-abiding people have never seen one and anybody could cobble together something convincing, especially with desk top publishing and a laminator.

I would like to think that if I was "approached" by a police officer and shown a warrant card, I would tell him to push off. How do I know he's a policeman? Even I could borrow a uniform, produce a "warrant card" from Google Images and pretend to be a copper. Anyone can!

I would tell him to go and get someone I recognised as a policeman, a person that was known in the community, and a person that was respected. Sorry, but policemen theses days are anything but, and you hardly ever see one.

We joke round here that Devon and Cornwall Police are two individual people. If you see a policeman, you wonder if it's PC Devon or PC Cornwall. If you see two together, that's the whole force!

(This is me, being grumpy and stroppy again!)

[meic]

Sorry going back to my original post I see that one of the things missed out for the sake of brevity is that she was an off duty Policewoman in her own car rather than a plainclothes on duty.
I assume she showed the card just to prove she really was a Police Officer but as said 12 year olds make very poor witnesses even wheh they have nothing to hide.
The Policewoman was going to talk to the parents but they were obviously still in bed.

This isnt Metropolitan England and attitudes are possibly twenty years behind the times here. I think she just gave him a lift because she felt it was a good thing to do, what she would appreciate for her own child, maybee. There is still a lot of that about and I dont want to make it difficult for people who still act that way.
Some of that community that people lament the passing of.
People are throwing a lot away due to their obsession about stranger danger.

The thing that both the Police Officer and the Scout seem to have missed is that the evil stranger will be just like a nice person until it is too late. The precautions that you are briefed to use MUST be used against NICE people if they are to work at all.
I wonder if it is all really an utter waste of time and we should just relax and trust each other more.
It is depressing that that Dyfed-Powys site said do not pick up hitch-hikers, it is like they are trying to make everyone suspicious of everyone and drive us all apart.

[Cunobelin]

Several of the scams on "The Real Hustle" rely on convincing reasonably sensible adults that they are real Police Officers.

The scams have included commandeering cars, taking spot fines in cash and others.

No way would a child be able to tell if the "Officer" was genuine or not.

Additionally inthe Fens there have been several incidents of a bogus Police Officer, and the same has occurred al over the Country.

This isnt Metropolitan England and attitudes are possibly twenty years behind the times here. I think she just gave him a lift because she felt it was a good thing to do, what she would appreciate for her own child, maybee. There is still a lot of that about and I dont want to make it difficult for people who still act that way.
Some of that community that people lament the passing of.
People are throwing a lot away due to their obsession about stranger danger.

I think the problem here is that we all knew our local Police (and they knew us!) so they were not strangers


Constructively.... why not use this as a programme.


Invite your local Police to the meeting (Beavers and Cubs as well?) and let them see what a warrant card looks like and the formal advice on what to do in such circumstances

[meic]

One of the things that this has bought home to me, is that they have had loads of training, advertising, information films, talks from the Police.
Along comes the first chance to put it to the test in practice,

The whole lot was completely ignored or forgoten.

I think there may be a credibility gap, they dont listen, they dont believe and dont remember.
The reason why could be because what they are told just doesnt match what they see and experience or they just dont understand.

[thirdcrank]

I'm not sure that it's a case of don't believe, or don't remember. I think that people - both adults and children - think that that sort of thing happens to others. From my experience, even some police officers are in that frame of mind, and at several levels. By that I mean that feeling that the serious cases reported by the media - and usually in more detail to them through police briefings - are not around here.

One of the most striking examples I remember of this was the infamous multiple murderer, Donald Neilson dubbed by the media "The Black Panther." When he was arrested it turned out that he had been living on the boundary of our division and Bradford.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Neilson

At the level of thinking 'everything will be ok' - just like getting into a car with strangers, some police officers will ignore basic tried and tested procedures, occasionally with serious results. I thought of a few examples but I'll keep my counsel.

[meic]

The fact is that it nearly always is OK.

Do we let the rare exceptions ruin our lives?
It appears the answer to that is yes these days.

[irc]

The fact is that it nearly always is OK.

Do we let the rare exceptions ruin our lives?
It appears the answer to that is yes these days.

Older children need to have the freedom to explore and live more independent lives. The saddest thing about this story was that someone thought it was inappropriate for a 12 yr old to walk home alone at 8am.

[eileithyia]

irc, I was thinking the same as I got to your post. Why should the, no doubt, well intentioned off duty police officer consider a 12 year should not be out at 8.00am, he could have been going to a number of suitable activities, or just going home after a perfectly legitimate activity such as he was. It would not be considered inappropriate at 8.00am mon-fri.

I would be more concerned about those I see out after 10pm and before 7.00am when I am travelling in and out of work for my silly shifts, often very much younger than 12.

[Cunobelin]

Donald Neilson is not a classic example...... I initially thought you meant Dennis Nilsen

People forget that in order to get someone where you can carry out any nefarious act you ned to be pleasant, nice, charismatic and plausible.

In many of these extreme cases the perpetrators are nice ordinary people who you would trust!

[thirdcrank]

What I meant about Donald Neilson was that for a while he was active in different part of the country and, therefore, travelling, probably at night. In those far off days, I regularly briefed officers , especially on nights, both about the checks to be carried out on vehicles being driven at night, and the safety precautions when doing so, because he was known to be armed. Some obviously believed that he was never going to drive through west Leeds. I'm not suggesting he used deception. My connection with kids getting in cars is that they think it won't happen to them.

[Freddie]

As a slight aside, the CTC gazette in the 50's used to do advertisements for tourists seeking tourist companions, there were often men/women in late teens/twenties seeking people from mid teens upwards, with today's hysteria such an advert wouldn't be allowed to be placed under fear of child abuse or some such. Whilst there's always some potential for danger, I tend to feel a lot of this is blown out of proportion, as the child walking along some road is far more likely to get mowed down than spirited away.

[meic]

"as the child walking along some road is far more likely to get mowed down than spirited away."
He was walking on the pavement but your statement is still probably true.

Prior to setting off the night before, he was given a hi-viz jacket to wear and because he had a rucksack over it the rucksack was dangled with reflective devices. Despite the fact he would be walking on the pavement, cars around here dont get the idea that pedestrians have the right of way on the pavement. It is afterall only there to leave your car on while collecting the kids safely.

[gaz]

To satisfy my own curiousity and/or broaden the discussion:-

Were the Scout Camp leaders aware the child had left camp? (i.e. had they been "signed out" of their care.)

Were the Scout Camp leaders aware the child was walking home?

Did the police officer ask either of those questions before offering the child a lift home?

How far had the child already walked?

How far did they have left to walk before they were home?

[NUKe]

Many years ago 1980 to be precise, when I was 18. I had incident in which another motorist pulled me over claiming to be an off duty officer. I became suspicious when He offered his radio as ID. So I set off and took flight. But fearing what might happen as it was Dad's car I was driving , I told my mother expecting her to be angry, when the police came calling. Of course my mother was wiser and Immeadiatly rang the Police expecting to complain about the conduct of the officer. The Police became interested as it was not one of there officer they took a statement but unfortunaltely I never thought to remember his number plate. The next person he did it too was a young police cadet who was much more savvy than me, and did a citizens arrest on the spot, I believe he got a couple of years for impersonating a police officer.

Could this lady have been something similar not a predator, but someone pretending to be an authority figure.