Should they get in the car?

[meic]

Yes he had been signed out
It was the parents' express wish that he WALKED home, why is this so shocking?
Travel to and from was the parents' responsibility. The Scout troop does not have a car owner's only policy.
He had walked 3 miles and had 2 more to go.

I dont think that we have to try and imagine that the lady in question was at all sinister, she picked him up and dropped him of at the door in full daylight and public view.
When I was a kid that sort of thing happened to me frequently.
Of course back then adults werent under suspicion for being nice to other people.

[irc]

I dont think that we have to try and imagine that the lady in question was at all sinister, she picked him up and dropped him of at the door in full daylight and public view.
When I was a kid that sort of thing happened to me frequently.
Of course back then adults werent under suspicion for being nice to other people.

It was OK if it was a case of "Do you want a lift home". It wasn't OK if it was "Why don't you get in the car, you shouldn't be walking home by yourself".

[meic]

Yes I agree it is not OK on the level of being a petty rudeness and dismissive of non-car centred life styles.
I dont think it is unacceptable though, just arrogant.

As Thirdcrank points out about the reliability of 12 year old's stories, I bet there was no lack of willingness to finish the journey by car instead of walking.

It isnt easy getting kids to do exercise, (well more than 10 mins of kicking a ball).

[thirdcrank]

It does show how much life has changed, especially for young people, in the last few decades and this is largely through the increasing use of motor vehicles. Children have less freedom today than before.

As has been pointed out, the risk of being a casualty through being hit by a motor vehicle is greater than from "stranger danger" and I think it's generally accepted that people including children are more at risk of violence and sexual offences from people they know than from strangers. OTOH, the risk from strangers is still significant and then getting the target into a motor vehicle - either by deception or violence - is a common feature. Sarah Harper, one of the children killed by Robert Black, lived only about I mile from my house and she was just a year younger than my younger son at the time of her death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bla ... ial_killer)

I don't claim to have an answer but it is sad that the inevitable increase in vigilence means that a lot of good people may be deterred from acts of kindness.

[Flinders]

If the officer had really thought it was a safety issue, they should have contacted their base and asked for a marked car to come and take him home (or rung his parents to ask them to come and fetch him and stayed with him till they arrived).
A child would be best refusing in the case as stated, as they were not at risk in the first place, and getting into a stranger's car could certainly be a risk.

[beachcomber]

Without knowing the officers side most of this is speculation.
Could it be she was a concerned mother who thought more about the child's welfare than of what it would look like to others judging her from the side lines?

Perhaps in her attempt to do good she did not give the situation enough thought. It may have been her belief that producing her warrant card was sufficient to assure the child she was well intentioned.
How would we be judging her now if the child had been involved in an accident or been abducted by some other person, and it was found out she could have prevented it by giving the child a lift to safety?
I ask this only to give another perspective.

I have stopped and offered adults a lift in the past. Though never a lone female. Recently I saw a middle aged chap with a young boy probably his son, walking along the road outside my house. They were caught in a downpour and did not have waterproofs. They stopped at the bus stop opposite my house and took shelter. When I left the house some 10 minutes later they were still there. The chap watched me drive off my driveway and pull up at the stop. I said I'd seen him waiting in the rain from my house and would he like a lift as I was heading for the next town. He reacted as if I'd struck him. A polite "No thanks" would have done.At no time did I speak to the boy.
What do you think he tells people of our encounter? Am I now suspected to be a chainsaw murderer who abducts wet travelers who wait innocently at bus stops?

So in the future I will not be stopping. Perhaps that's why incidents happen and no one gets involved these days.

[Flinders]

We once stopped to give a lift to two ladies who were thumbing a lift on a rural road. A few yards down the road we were pulled over by a marked police car- the ladies were absconding from the local jail.
Sometimes you can't do right for doing wrong!

[gaz]

Coming back to my own questions I'm pleased (and relieved) that the Scout group were aware that he had left and were supportive of his parent's decision that he could walk home, the distance was not unreasonable.

As has been said by others we are all standing on the sidelines with the benefits of hindsight and an account from only one of the participants.

I would like to know how the scout came to the conclusion that getting in the car was the best thing to do. Was he satisfied the warrant card was genuine and therefore saw no risk or did he simply forget all the "stranger danger" messages?

[meic]

"Could it be she was a concerned mother who thought more about the child's welfare than of what it would look like to others judging her from the side lines?"

Yes that is exactly what I think and I am glad to live in an area where such things do still happen.

However I wil be deliberatly and provocativly rude and suggest that her kids are probably over-pampered fat lumps who cant even walk a 100m and will die of heart attack before reaching 40. Despite that I will not be stopping her car, dragging them out and kicking their fat butts up the road to save their lives.

I am merely saying this to point out that it is not normal for parents to have their parenting over-ruled unless there is good reason. If I was to have done that, I think the science, and statistics would be in my favour not hers. However I dont think any court would accept my plea.

I dont want anybody getting the wrong idea I have no problem with this lady offering a lift, I have no ill will towards her at all. She has done the scout a favour by pointing out that when the dreaded scenario occured of being offered a lift by a stranger, he failed to make the connection with all that "just say No" that has been driven into him.

[thirdcrank]

meic

I'm a bit confused by your last paragraph. Are you saying that this police officer offered him a lift then told him he'd been wrong to accept?

The bit I have difficulty with in this is that if a police officer is off-duty, they can act 'like normal people.' (If that expression makes sense.) Child walking along - can offer a lift. Now, if for some reason they have to take it a step further by identifying themselves as a police officer, they have become official. The very fact of having to suggest "You are OK with me (because I am a police officer)" is what takes it to another level. It both highlights the recurrent "bogie" (bogus official) element of so much of this type of crime and suggests to others such as parents that the lift was somehow officially inspired. I'm trying to think of an instance where I have stopped to help a child or children unaccompanied by adults and the only time I can remember is once stopping to help three girls with bikes by pumping up a flat tyre. They eagerly accepted my offer but if they had even looked like declining, I should have continued on my way. I should not have said you are OK with me because I am a retired police officer. If for some reason which I cannot imagine, I had ever identified myself to a child as a police officer and not gone on to meet and explain to their parents, I should at the very least have given them a note with my contact details and the time when I would next be on duty if they wanted to contact me.

[meic]

No sorry I was a bit misleading there. It was the lecture that he got on telling his parents which actually pointed it out. The incident was useful to show that he should do what he was taught in all cases, not only if it was proven to him that the person offering the lift was a kidnapper and wearing a prison outfit too.

Yes I can see your points about how Police should conduct their business and balance on and off duty. I wonder if she claimed her £40 off duty allowance?
However it is something that I dont want to get involved in or cause trouble about.

Possibly she originally stopped him because she was suspicious and then after talking to him decided he was vulnerable instead? I have now heard that it said Inspector on the ID, I dont know enough about the Police to know if that makes any difference.
I do seem to have got myself into a debate about correct Police protacol, when my intention was just to use that as a build up to the fact that he was acted upon just for walking home.

As it happens he should have been cycling to and from the event but he had not prepared the bike well enough to be allowed to use it. Walking was considered as a totally safe alternative. To have this happen for walking on the pavement makes you wonder about the reaction if he had been cycling on the pavement or the road.

[thirdcrank]

... I wonder if she claimed her £40 off duty allowance? ...

(You've lost me there.)

it said Inspector on the ID, I dont know enough about the Police to know if that makes any difference..

Not in a case like this. Older and wiser, and on a better rate of basic pay. Otherwise, like everybody else, a constable.

...he was acted upon just for walking home...

That's part of the reason it seems important to me to make contact with the parents to explain just what happened. Having intervened in an official capacity I can see strong - almost compelling - reasons for taking him home. Having taken him home, it just seems strange not then explaining to the parents what had happened, if only to prevent confusion like this. If there was something about the situation involving risk to the child - clowning about in the road with others, for example, which would be edited from the child's account - then explaining to the parents seems even more important. I'm from a generation who went to school alone from the age of four, and as a solo youth hosteller from the age of 13, I don't have any problem with your views about walking home.

[meic]

So are you suspecting that he took a lift off a stranger and then made up the bit about Police to explain his actions away? It would explain some of the confusion.
He did have permission to take lifts if he only phoned first, maybee he forgot to phone or thought that he had better grab the offer quick, rather than have it removed for time wasting. The fact that he didnt phone does make that possible.

[thirdcrank]

So are you suspecting that he took a lift off a stranger and then made up the bit about Police to explain his actions away? ...

Not at all (I'm keeping an open mind with the sun shining in one ear and out of the other.) OTOH, in my experience, if the police are involved with children, the latter's account often minimises or overlooks the reason it happened.

Children are children and I was looking at this from the POV of what might be expected from police officers. Common sense says that if a child reports contact with the police, most parents are going to want a proper account of the reason. Taking at it the very basic, let's-all-cover-our-backs level (not necessarily a good guide to the way to do something) AFAIK concerns about police dealings with children represent quite a chunk of all public complaints - something an inspector might be only too well aware of*. A frank and timely explanation of the reason something has happened is often the best way to prevent complaints.

* I've just had a look at the complaints info published by Heddlu** Dyfedd Powys Police and the IPCC and this is not dealt with separately.

** I see that the Deputy Chief Constable is responsible for dealing with complaints about non-compliance with the Welsh language policy so I have tried to comply.

[meic]

I had never considered the option that she asked him in English.
If that was the case I may feel I DO have to complain to the Deputy Chief Constable.