Global Warming - Are you doing anything ??

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Si
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Postby Si » 14 Jan 2007, 7:39pm

The Vikings colonised Greenland more than a 1000 odd years ago. They called it Green Land because it was green.


Naaa, they called it Green Land because it was a dingy 'orrible icy place and the only way that they could get more settlers was to "big it up" as a good place to go.

However, it's true that we have had localised hot and cold phases through out history, e.g. the Medieval "mini-ice-age". However, the difference appears to be the speed that the planet is warming at the moment.

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Fonant
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Postby Fonant » 14 Jan 2007, 10:11pm

hubgearfreak wrote:i reckon a few quid a week. not a great deal...as for the electricity and water and soap, i've not measured it, but even an A rated machine is a heavy user of power, i always thought


Probably less than the fridge & freezer, but I haven't measured it.

hubgearfreak wrote:i really don't want to be scraping the poo out before it goes in the wash.


You use a disposable liner, that goes down the loo with the poo :) No scraping needed. An a nappy bucket with tea tree oil sorts out any smells.

hubgearfreak wrote:(does this then get flushed in the loo with another 10litres?)


No, 3 litres :) I understand you can compost the poo, or add it to a wormery, but we haven't tried that yet...

hubgearfreak wrote:however, i'd be interested to see a proper cost benefit analysis (not sponsored by bosch, persil or huggies :wink: ) including all financial and environmental costs


I think the two different methods are probably about equal, depending a great deal on which disposables you use, where they are made, etc. and the details of your washing machine and loo flush. What is clear, though, is that the landfill problem is a big one: West Sussex County Council don't give out hundreds of pounds of reusable nappies to new parents for no reason at all.

West Sussex County Council wrote:Real nappies:
"Did you know that in West Sussex alone 77,000 disposable nappies are currently going to landfill every day?" said Frank.
"Because of this, we introduced our award-winning eco-friendly real nappy scheme in 1999."
The scheme includes a free starter pack – valued at £100 – that contains:
Nappies.
Liners.
A bag.
A guide on fitting and washing nappies.
Up to £30 per cent Cash Back incentive for continuing to use real nappies.
"If we continue piling rubbish into landfill at the present rate we will run out of landfill space within the decade.
Anthony Cartmell (also known as "admin" when posting in a more official capacity on this Forum)
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malakoffee
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Postby malakoffee » 14 Jan 2007, 10:15pm

I'm still trying to figure this out. Amongst you intelligent & thoughtful lot I am prepared to discuss what I'm doing sustainability-wise. Out in the real world I sense that people around me are, at best, uninterested in such things.
The publicity about GW has never been so prominent. All worthy bodies ( and even the government :shock:) exhalting us to do good stuff and yet I feel as though I'm getting no tangible reward for my efforts.
e.g. Us cyclists should be praised by the rest of society for our sustainable transport. ?? Do you feel valued, as a cyclist by other road users ??
One would think that there may be some changes in the taxation system to reward sustainable behaviour. Do you know of anything significant ?? . . . I mean significant, not just the lip-service & token tinkering.
Maybe the problem lies here. If loads of people stopped leading wasteful and unsustainable lives the economy would stop growing, then contract. The unemployment figures would rise ( hopefully the frivolous & wasteful activities first ). The voters might not like that !!
Wow, what a dilemma. :!:

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Postby Fonant » 14 Jan 2007, 10:44pm

malakoffee wrote:If loads of people stopped leading wasteful and unsustainable lives the economy would stop growing, then contract.


Aha, 1984, George Orwell. The Party had to keep having wars so that people had to keep making, and expending, weapons, so that the economy would flourish. Who the enemy was at any one time was irrelevant. Hmmm....
Anthony Cartmell (also known as "admin" when posting in a more official capacity on this Forum)
Kangaroo trike, Windcheetah recumbent, Batavus dutch bike, Dawes Galaxy Twin tandem, Pashley unicycle
http://www.fonant.com – Quality web sites.

jb
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Postby jb » 14 Jan 2007, 11:10pm

Instead of switching lights off, pretending to recycle things, and all the rest of the insignificant crap that people like to do, to relieve their consciences of guilt.

Why not try paying a bit more for consumer goods produced in countries that have to abide by strict and fully enforced pollution regulations with efficient power producing plants that make full use of all energy producing technologies instead of burning off whats cheap to hand.
Cheers
J Bro

Dai

Postby Dai » 14 Jan 2007, 11:20pm

jb wrote:Instead of switching lights off, pretending to recycle things, and all the rest of the insignificant crap that people like to do, to relieve their consciences of guilt.

Why not try paying a bit more for consumer goods produced in countries that have to abide by strict and fully enforced pollution regulations with efficient power producing plants that make full use of all energy producing technologies instead of burning off whats cheap to hand.


Yes OK - so put your hand on your heart and name them

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Postby jb » 14 Jan 2007, 11:47pm

Dai wrote:
jb wrote:Instead of switching lights off, pretending to recycle things, and all the rest of the insignificant crap that people like to do, to relieve their consciences of guilt.

Why not try paying a bit more for consumer goods produced in countries that have to abide by strict and fully enforced pollution regulations with efficient power producing plants that make full use of all energy producing technologies instead of burning off whats cheap to hand.


Yes OK - so put your hand on your heart and name them


The UK for one. I know, I am hounded by them from dawn to dusk. Most of the EEC is bound by the same laws even if not totally perfect.

Europe does more for Global conservation than possibly any where else on the planet. Probably because they are more genuinely aware of the problem.

The places we buy our cheap bicycle frames dishwashers and cameras etc from have precisely zilch regulations (or any that are taken any notice of) on carbon emissions, environment, or small furry creature protection
Cheers

J Bro

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Postby Fonant » 15 Jan 2007, 9:25am

jb wrote:
Dai wrote:
jb wrote:Why not try paying a bit more for consumer goods produced in countries that have to abide by strict and fully enforced pollution regulations with efficient power producing plants that make full use of all energy producing technologies instead of burning off whats cheap to hand.


Yes OK - so put your hand on your heart and name them


The UK for one.


Hmmm.... last time I looked the UK was pretty pathetic on renewable energy consumption, and our transport policies are still encouraging car and aeroplane use and discouraging use of walking, cycling, buses and trains. Now if you'd said The Netherlands, or perhaps any other mainland European country, I might have been more convinced.

Are you saying, by the way, that no-one should bother recycling, using less power, etc? After our cars, our homes are the next biggest users of energy in the UK.

Anyway, I have no guilt - I actually enjoy doing my bit to make the world slightly less difficult to live in for my children and grandchildren :)
Anthony Cartmell (also known as "admin" when posting in a more official capacity on this Forum)
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Postby jb » 15 Jan 2007, 10:17am

Its all relative. we think this countries bad because we live here and don't see it in comparison with the world as a whole. Nobody gets a mention on the news for installing thousands of pounds of environmental filter plant in their factory but the minute some one like ICI lets a bit of waste escape its spread all over the media. Not complying with your allowed emission consents is enforced very hard in this country especially if its a big company which is why its so obvious when something goes wrong.

Mr cheap bicycle frame manufacturer pours his waste solvents down the river and nobody says a word, Unfortunately we all have to live on the same planet.

I would agree our public transport is badly organized but our vehicles are still subject to stringent emission limits, which are wholly ignored in a lot of the world.


You can tell when its genuinely economic to recycle materials when they start paying you for it, like they have done with scrap metal since before Steptoe was a lad.
Cheers

J Bro

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Si
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Postby Si » 15 Jan 2007, 12:01pm

Thing is though, that in places like China there is a massive increase in , for instance, car use and thus the pollution that goes with it. This is not because they need cars - they managed quite well with their bikes before, but because they see having a car as buying into a progressive Western model: it shows that they are successful.

Therefore, our power use might be small when compared to what the "developing" east are doing but our influence is not. If we cut down on our excesses and make "Greenness" the new fashion then there is a potential to influence those beyond our borders and thus change the world. The act of me recycling my newspaper may have little physical effect in itself, but me being seen to recycle _could_ be the key to making the planet a better place for people to live.

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Postby David » 15 Jan 2007, 3:49pm

jb wrote:
Dai wrote:
jb wrote:Instead of switching lights off, pretending to recycle things, and all the rest of the insignificant crap that people like to do, to relieve their consciences of guilt.

Why not try paying a bit more for consumer goods produced in countries that have to abide by strict and fully enforced pollution regulations with efficient power producing plants that make full use of all energy producing technologies instead of burning off whats cheap to hand.


Yes OK - so put your hand on your heart and name them


The UK for one. I know, I am hounded by them from dawn to dusk. Most of the EEC is bound by the same laws even if not totally perfect.

Europe does more for Global conservation than possibly any where else on the planet. Probably because they are more genuinely aware of the problem.

The places we buy our cheap bicycle frames dishwashers and cameras etc from have precisely zilch regulations (or any that are taken any notice of) on carbon emissions, environment, or small furry creature protection


And how often have you bought something from a well established British firm only to find "Made in China" or some other sweatshop economy ?

If it's all made elsewhere why not cut out the middle man and buy direct ?

Even our humble bicycles, most are made in Taiwan and "Assembled" here. Pure builders have a hard time making a living in the UK, if there was money to be made we'd have Virgin Bikes or Amstrad bikes.

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Postby jb » 15 Jan 2007, 4:25pm

Si wrote:Thing is though, that in places like China there is a massive increase in , for instance, car use and thus the pollution that goes with it. This is not because they need cars - they managed quite well with their bikes before, but because they see having a car as buying into a progressive Western model: it shows that they are successful.

Therefore, our power use might be small when compared to what the "developing" east are doing but our influence is not. If we cut down on our excesses and make "Greenness" the new fashion then there is a potential to influence those beyond our borders and thus change the world. The act of me recycling my newspaper may have little physical effect in itself, but me being seen to recycle _could_ be the key to making the planet a better place for people to live.


I would agree entirely with that, thats why I take stuff for recycling but I don't do it under any elusion that its saving on anything, I wouldn't be surprised if most of its not buried in someone else’s back yard.

I would like to see all packaging made of the same material making it more effective to re-use and forcing others to adopt the same policy of genuine resource saving.

David
Buying something from a well established UK firm only to find its made in the sweat shops of the far east is annoying but hardly the fault of those of us who 'are' manufacturing at home.

Any way I'm not on a buy British campaign, I’m talking about buying from sources that have to manufacture to stringent emission & energy controls be it here or anywhere else, and that will reflect in the price that’s paid for consumer goods being higher.

The fact that UK manufacturing would benefit from a more level playing field would be a side effect. And lets not forget that ultimately third world folk forced to work in conditions long since banned in the EC will also benefit from a healthier environment in the long run.
Cheers

J Bro

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Postby David » 15 Jan 2007, 4:57pm

JB
Any way I'm not on a buy British campaign, I’m talking about buying from sources that have to manufacture to stringent emission & energy controls be it here or anywhere else, and that will reflect in the price that’s paid for consumer goods being higher.


Don't forget there is a human cost here too, third world manufacturers pay third world labour charges, that is where most of the price differential comes from.

Mind you, we were plagued locally for years by smells from a food manufacturing plant and I was out with the dog one night and saw a large articulated lorry being loaded up. It was taking vegetable samoses etc. to Kent 300 miles away. I realised then why the smells were so bad, if it was cheaper to send a 40 tonne lorry on a 600 mile trip to pick up a load of samosas then the local factory must be churning stuff out cheap and cutting corners to do it, one of the corners being quality filtering of the cooking smells. They're still going but they moved to a site in Middlesbrough and are now blighting that place. The council served them with notices etc. but ultimately gave them planning permission to start up elsewhere because it brought jobs to a very depressed area. The company had the word Savoury in its name, this was always replaced by Slavery when talking with any employees. Point is its not just third world employers who should be watched.

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Postby hubgearfreak » 15 Jan 2007, 4:59pm

Fonant wrote:[You use a disposable liner, that goes down the loo

I think the two different methods are probably about equal,

What is clear, though, is that the landfill problem is a big one: West Sussex .
[/quote]

unless they disintegrate in water as bog roll does, then i'll bet the water company aren't too happy about having to deal with them clogging up the sewage works.
landfill is a problem, but transferring the problem to the water company isn't a soultion. and remember, disposables use no drinking water in the household, which quite a bit of is required for flushing, rinsing, washing.
and then the extra drying :( as i've said earlier...this decision is one that my wife & I make, and she WILL NOT have washables, even if i was in mind to have them. given that she is the boss, then hers is the casting vote :wink:

i would have also thought that given the costs and benefits of each, then they are probably equal.

however, you can keep banging on at me all you want...but better to preach to the non converted :P

and as for landfill/recycling, who here buys their beer in returnables like i do??

remember, REDUCE REUSE RECYCLE, in that order

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Postby Fonant » 15 Jan 2007, 5:13pm

hubgearfreak wrote:unless they disintegrate in water as bog roll does, then i'll bet the water company aren't too happy about having to deal with them clogging up the sewage works.
landfill is a problem, but transferring the problem to the water company isn't a soultion.


They do disintegrate in water, just like bog roll. The solids in sewage are extracted, dried, and used as fertiliser on fields, so a useful by-product :) Landfill doesn no-one any good, and often causes problems for later. That's why landfill taxes are so high (often to the advantage of cycle schemes, so it's not all bad news for us!).

I'm not trying to convert your wife ;)
Anthony Cartmell (also known as "admin" when posting in a more official capacity on this Forum)
Kangaroo trike, Windcheetah recumbent, Batavus dutch bike, Dawes Galaxy Twin tandem, Pashley unicycle
http://www.fonant.com – Quality web sites.