Well, the fact remains that NHS staff, like most public sector workers, are expensive to employ, mainly because of the perks I mentioned above.
I see no reason why these same staff, if outsourced to the private sector firms doing work for the NHS, could not continue to provide the service they do now. Or are NHS staff saying they require much better pensions, shorter working weeks, shorter working lives, longer holidays and lots more sick days than the private workforce which pays their wages in order to work diligently? If so, that doesn't reflect too well on them.
At the moment, the state is a monopoly supplier of health care to most of us on normal wages. And the current situation whereby NHS staff are treated much better in terms of pay and other terms and conditions that the people who pay their wages could be seen as the state exploiting that monopoly for the benefit of its own employees rather than striving to ameliorate its effects on the rest of the population.
Essentially, the NHS and all the public services are experiencing the cold blast of reality that hit the private sector years ago as we adjust to a world where the UK is declining relatively in economic terms and getting used to lower wages, shorter hours, less secure jobs and other realities of modern life.
To expect the private workforce of the UK to come to terms with this reality while sustaining a large, well paid and generously treated public sector at the high point of the UK's funny money late 20th century prosperity is naive. Those employed by the public will have to endure their fair share of the public's hardships.
In future years, and to some extent already, jobs in the public sector will be prized as high unemployment and underemployment become the norm. When people are fighting for jobs, employers don't need to offer good wages and fantastic terms and conditions. That applies just as much when the public is the employer as when it's the local factory or shop.
NHS -privatisation!
Re: NHS -privatisation!
You make it sound as if the NHS workers are the Mega-rich sucking all the blood out of us "hard working families".
Was the above post cut and pasted from the Conservative Party Manifesto or The Daily Mail.
In other words your argument is really based on political ideology (as is my reply to it).
Was the above post cut and pasted from the Conservative Party Manifesto or The Daily Mail.
In other words your argument is really based on political ideology (as is my reply to it).
Yma o Hyd
Re: NHS -privatisation!
Our friend clearly has no idea of the pay rates of people like health care assistants.
Re: NHS -privatisation!
As the husband of a nurse (Neo-Natal intensive care), I can honestly say it's not exactly a breeze. 12.5 hour shift always stressful, pay is poor bearing in mind you have people's lives in your hands. The shifts move around between day and night, causing direct health stress, and you're dealing with very stressed people all of the time.
I on the other hand, work in the IT dept of an Inv bank. None of the above apply, yet I get paid grossly more than she does.
The NHS is a bargain - I'd much rather pay the tax I pay now and not have to pay tens of thousands per annum for health costs (Bear in mind I've lived and worked in 2 countries with a private health care system so I have experience of both sides). However, as a tax payer, my view of the future in a part/fully privatised NHS is that my taxes won't go down one iota, but I'll still have to shell out for additional private cover, so the system will not only be more expensive, it will directly penalise all it's customers too.
I on the other hand, work in the IT dept of an Inv bank. None of the above apply, yet I get paid grossly more than she does.
The NHS is a bargain - I'd much rather pay the tax I pay now and not have to pay tens of thousands per annum for health costs (Bear in mind I've lived and worked in 2 countries with a private health care system so I have experience of both sides). However, as a tax payer, my view of the future in a part/fully privatised NHS is that my taxes won't go down one iota, but I'll still have to shell out for additional private cover, so the system will not only be more expensive, it will directly penalise all it's customers too.
Re: NHS -privatisation!
In reality we need to scrap the NHS and start again.
If you look at the original concept, we had endemic poor health and the idea of the NHS was to address that. It was set up with the ideal concepts of getting care where and when you needed without having to worry if you could afford it.
What should then have happened was that as the general health improved there would be a healthier nation and hence less need for the NHS which could then scale down to a maintenance regime dealing with accidents, emergences and chronic illnesses / cancer etc.
It was never designed to maintain half of the services that are now provided. Fertility treatments, cosmetics, and the likes were never part of the concept. Add to this the continuing burdens imposed by an ageing population and the NHS becomes a nightmare to finance.
Do we need to be really brave and scrap it?
If you look at the original concept, we had endemic poor health and the idea of the NHS was to address that. It was set up with the ideal concepts of getting care where and when you needed without having to worry if you could afford it.
What should then have happened was that as the general health improved there would be a healthier nation and hence less need for the NHS which could then scale down to a maintenance regime dealing with accidents, emergences and chronic illnesses / cancer etc.
It was never designed to maintain half of the services that are now provided. Fertility treatments, cosmetics, and the likes were never part of the concept. Add to this the continuing burdens imposed by an ageing population and the NHS becomes a nightmare to finance.
Do we need to be really brave and scrap it?
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thirdcrank
- Posts: 36780
- Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm
Re: NHS -privatisation!
A point that some supporters of market decisionmaking seem not to be able to grasp, is that market forces contributed to the present situation. ie expensive solutions to everything, where the main need was for an improvement in the fundamentals of health: better diet, more exercise, cutting out things like fags and, dare I say it, dangerous working practices. (All of which are anathema to free marketeers, except perhaps more exercise. so long as it involves a fat fee for gym membership.)
Re: NHS -privatisation!
I see no reason why these same staff, if outsourced to the private sector firms doing work for the NHS, could not continue to provide the service they do now. Or are NHS staff saying they require much better pensions, shorter working weeks, shorter working lives, longer holidays and lots more sick days than the private workforce which pays their wages in order to work diligently? If so, that doesn't reflect too well on them
Funnily enough, in the sector my OH works this has been tried. (More than once) His area has been offered out to private tender, but there have been few takers. If the scenario you paint above was actually true, then a private company would have been easily able to remove some of those "perks" and be able to provide just as good a service. In fact, the reverse has been the case. The NHS employs the staff concerned on such low wages, with none of the perks you outline above that the private companies found there were no corners they could cut and still make money which is after all what a private company is all about. Even private companies have to pay minimum wages, particularly where they require well-trained and well qualified staff (presumably you'd like somebody who knows what they're doing looking at medical results?) or they'll get no staff at all. The NHS would actually have to had paid the private companies sweeteners to take the service on - there are certain standards required in the NHS (quite correctly regulated by law) which the private companies couldn't guarantee to meet.
Result : cheaper and more efficent (and of a FAR higher standard) to keep the service in the NHS.
At one time, this was very much flavour of the month, and various private companies did have a go. None survived. They just couldn't make the money AND deliver the quality. The NHS had to take it all back - now giant trusts and amalgamation of services are the vogue.
Jan
(PS, do let me know the result next time you need an NHS worker and repeat what you've just written above. I'd love to hear their reaction)
Re: NHS -privatisation!
(PS, do let me know the result next time you need an NHS worker and repeat what you've just written above. I'd love to hear their reaction)
Apologies but I cant resist it.
They would probably say "Were you wearing a helmet?"
Yma o Hyd
Re: NHS -privatisation!
blackbike wrote:Well, the fact remains that NHS staff, like most public sector workers, are expensive to employ, mainly because of the perks I mentioned above.
I see no reason why these same staff, if outsourced to the private sector firms doing work for the NHS, could not continue to provide the service they do now. Or are NHS staff saying they require much better pensions, shorter working weeks, shorter working lives, longer holidays and lots more sick days than the private workforce which pays their wages in order to work diligently? If so, that doesn't reflect too well on them.
At the moment, the state is a monopoly supplier of health care to most of us on normal wages. And the current situation whereby NHS staff are treated much better in terms of pay and other terms and conditions that the people who pay their wages could be seen as the state exploiting that monopoly for the benefit of its own employees rather than striving to ameliorate its effects on the rest of the population.
Essentially, the NHS and all the public services are experiencing the cold blast of reality that hit the private sector years ago as we adjust to a world where the UK is declining relatively in economic terms and getting used to lower wages, shorter hours, less secure jobs and other realities of modern life.
To expect the private workforce of the UK to come to terms with this reality while sustaining a large, well paid and generously treated public sector at the high point of the UK's funny money late 20th century prosperity is naive. Those employed by the public will have to endure their fair share of the public's hardships.
In future years, and to some extent already, jobs in the public sector will be prized as high unemployment and underemployment become the norm. When people are fighting for jobs, employers don't need to offer good wages and fantastic terms and conditions. That applies just as much when the public is the employer as when it's the local factory or shop.
Have you actually looked at the facts as opposed to the rhetoric?
In virtually all the dealings the Private Sector is more expensive than the NHS. Whether that be the 700% profit margin from building a PFI to the millions spent paying for work that is not done!
As for the well paid......
The average newly qualified graduate nurse will earn less than many of the other private sector graduate entries
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chambo3413
- Posts: 163
- Joined: 25 Nov 2007, 8:31pm
- Location: hilly Derbyshire
Re: NHS -privatisation!
"Well, the fact remains that NHS staff, like most public sector workers, are expensive to employ, mainly because of the perks I mentioned above.
I see no reason why these same staff, if outsourced to the private sector firms doing work for the NHS, could not continue to provide the service they do now. Or are NHS staff saying they require much better pensions, shorter working weeks, shorter working lives, longer holidays and lots more sick days than the private workforce which pays their wages in order to work diligently? If so, that doesn't reflect too well on them.
At the moment, the state is a monopoly supplier of health care to most of us on normal wages. And the current situation whereby NHS staff are treated much better in terms of pay and other terms and conditions that the people who pay their wages could be seen as the state exploiting that monopoly for the benefit of its own employees rather than striving to ameliorate its effects on the rest of the population.
Essentially, the NHS and all the public services are experiencing the cold blast of reality that hit the private sector years ago as we adjust to a world where the UK is declining relatively in economic terms and getting used to lower wages, shorter hours, less secure jobs and other realities of modern life.
To expect the private workforce of the UK to come to terms with this reality while sustaining a large, well paid and generously treated public sector at the high point of the UK's funny money late 20th century prosperity is naive. Those employed by the public will have to endure their fair share of the public's hardships.
In future years, and to some extent already, jobs in the public sector will be prized as high unemployment and underemployment become the norm. When people are fighting for jobs, employers don't need to offer good wages and fantastic terms and conditions. That applies just as much when the public is the employer as when it's the local factory or shop."
Be afraid be VERY afraid, I have worked in the NHS for around 5 years my wife for around12, my colleagues many lifetime NHS workers at all levels and we can REALLY see what is happening,sad to say we've been sold down the river by and for the benefit of the quite wealthy senior consultants, doctors, private investors etc etc, exactly the same as what happened with care in the community when that came in , high up people in the NHS took advantage of their contacts and set up private care homes they also took the 'clients' with thhem, investigations were made most were dismissed as no conflict of interest,they have made fortunes and care standards have slipped badly...prior to this job I worked in a private 'charitable' housing association working with vulnerable and often VERY difficult to manage clients, some of those budgets were over £250'000 per year for one client, there is was no way private was/is cheaper than the previous NHS care homes...remember the Rampton scandal they were I believe in a government owned NHS hospital with trained staff and look what happened...still think private care etc with untrained staff is a good idea where will your relatives be going and you when you're older?...their only motive is profit.
They use the idea that community care is better, better for whom the client? no they often don't like where they live and were far happier in the old 'insitutional hospitals' they mixed more had less to worry about hads less conflict with the public, not that you'll hear much of that as it was/is oftem covered up by staff/ companies etc, think it's ok to have your neighbour move their bedroom around 200+ times a year often at 03:00?
A friend recently came back from the states £600 poorer after taking his wife to the 'primary care physcian' (watch out for that being the new name for your GP) re an ear infection the whole thing including time and antibiotics was over £600.
Still unsure then watch Michael Moores ' SICKO' $6000 per annum or was it £6000, the biggest cause of bankruptcy in the US is I believe health care costs!
Do I fear for my job damn right I do, do I fear for the future of our NHS that was set up to care from cradle to grave oh yes indeedee far more than for my job I can get another one of those, once the NHS is gone it will never return!...just look at the dentistry debacle few years ago............. the RNIB has published articles aluding to the fact that since charges were introduced for eye tests that less people are having them and in Scotland where I believe they are now free again that people having eye tests have gone up, around here getting to see 'your' GP can take two weeks I remember you could always see your GP within a day or two.
I see no reason why these same staff, if outsourced to the private sector firms doing work for the NHS, could not continue to provide the service they do now. Or are NHS staff saying they require much better pensions, shorter working weeks, shorter working lives, longer holidays and lots more sick days than the private workforce which pays their wages in order to work diligently? If so, that doesn't reflect too well on them.
At the moment, the state is a monopoly supplier of health care to most of us on normal wages. And the current situation whereby NHS staff are treated much better in terms of pay and other terms and conditions that the people who pay their wages could be seen as the state exploiting that monopoly for the benefit of its own employees rather than striving to ameliorate its effects on the rest of the population.
Essentially, the NHS and all the public services are experiencing the cold blast of reality that hit the private sector years ago as we adjust to a world where the UK is declining relatively in economic terms and getting used to lower wages, shorter hours, less secure jobs and other realities of modern life.
To expect the private workforce of the UK to come to terms with this reality while sustaining a large, well paid and generously treated public sector at the high point of the UK's funny money late 20th century prosperity is naive. Those employed by the public will have to endure their fair share of the public's hardships.
In future years, and to some extent already, jobs in the public sector will be prized as high unemployment and underemployment become the norm. When people are fighting for jobs, employers don't need to offer good wages and fantastic terms and conditions. That applies just as much when the public is the employer as when it's the local factory or shop."
Be afraid be VERY afraid, I have worked in the NHS for around 5 years my wife for around12, my colleagues many lifetime NHS workers at all levels and we can REALLY see what is happening,sad to say we've been sold down the river by and for the benefit of the quite wealthy senior consultants, doctors, private investors etc etc, exactly the same as what happened with care in the community when that came in , high up people in the NHS took advantage of their contacts and set up private care homes they also took the 'clients' with thhem, investigations were made most were dismissed as no conflict of interest,they have made fortunes and care standards have slipped badly...prior to this job I worked in a private 'charitable' housing association working with vulnerable and often VERY difficult to manage clients, some of those budgets were over £250'000 per year for one client, there is was no way private was/is cheaper than the previous NHS care homes...remember the Rampton scandal they were I believe in a government owned NHS hospital with trained staff and look what happened...still think private care etc with untrained staff is a good idea where will your relatives be going and you when you're older?...their only motive is profit.
They use the idea that community care is better, better for whom the client? no they often don't like where they live and were far happier in the old 'insitutional hospitals' they mixed more had less to worry about hads less conflict with the public, not that you'll hear much of that as it was/is oftem covered up by staff/ companies etc, think it's ok to have your neighbour move their bedroom around 200+ times a year often at 03:00?
A friend recently came back from the states £600 poorer after taking his wife to the 'primary care physcian' (watch out for that being the new name for your GP) re an ear infection the whole thing including time and antibiotics was over £600.
Still unsure then watch Michael Moores ' SICKO' $6000 per annum or was it £6000, the biggest cause of bankruptcy in the US is I believe health care costs!
Do I fear for my job damn right I do, do I fear for the future of our NHS that was set up to care from cradle to grave oh yes indeedee far more than for my job I can get another one of those, once the NHS is gone it will never return!...just look at the dentistry debacle few years ago............. the RNIB has published articles aluding to the fact that since charges were introduced for eye tests that less people are having them and in Scotland where I believe they are now free again that people having eye tests have gone up, around here getting to see 'your' GP can take two weeks I remember you could always see your GP within a day or two.
information on cycling in and around Chesterfield during the 1930's -1970's wanted
Re: NHS -privatisation!
It's really all part of the move since 1979 to 'outsource' parts of the services that used to be provided by the state.
NHS, Education, Police, Highways. No one was making any money from these prior to 1979.
Now:-
Elderly Care is outsourced and Southern Cross went bust threatening the care to their 'clients'.
Prison Officers are supplemented by private security firms.
Police forces are starting to use the same private security firms.
Higher Education at least in England is not free at point of use.
Care of young people without a home is run by private firms witness the recent tragedy in Rochdale.
The campaign to constantly denigrate state schools is paying off as Academies are opening up.
The campaign to tell us how bad the NHS performs is designed to make the move to private hospitals politically acceptable.
Our Police Forces seem hell bent on self destruction with one local, to me, force working through an investigation into several of its senior officers which is costing so much that it is endangering its ability to operate. Many other forces are suffering from a leadership which can not easily be seen as squeaky clean.
Our problem is that our governments are in the pocket of big business who see all our services as an opportunity to make money. Meantime Elderly care, Care of young persons who have suffered family breakdown, Policing and many other services are either failing or are only available to those who can pay.
NHS, Education, Police, Highways. No one was making any money from these prior to 1979.
Now:-
Elderly Care is outsourced and Southern Cross went bust threatening the care to their 'clients'.
Prison Officers are supplemented by private security firms.
Police forces are starting to use the same private security firms.
Higher Education at least in England is not free at point of use.
Care of young people without a home is run by private firms witness the recent tragedy in Rochdale.
The campaign to constantly denigrate state schools is paying off as Academies are opening up.
The campaign to tell us how bad the NHS performs is designed to make the move to private hospitals politically acceptable.
Our Police Forces seem hell bent on self destruction with one local, to me, force working through an investigation into several of its senior officers which is costing so much that it is endangering its ability to operate. Many other forces are suffering from a leadership which can not easily be seen as squeaky clean.
Our problem is that our governments are in the pocket of big business who see all our services as an opportunity to make money. Meantime Elderly care, Care of young persons who have suffered family breakdown, Policing and many other services are either failing or are only available to those who can pay.
"I thought of that while riding my bike." -Albert Einstein, on the Theory of Relativity
2007 ICE QNT
2008 Hase Kettwiesel AL27
2011 Catrike Trail
1951 engine
2007 ICE QNT
2008 Hase Kettwiesel AL27
2011 Catrike Trail
1951 engine
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chambo3413
- Posts: 163
- Joined: 25 Nov 2007, 8:31pm
- Location: hilly Derbyshire
Re: NHS -privatisation!
The whole thing about privatisation is lies, apparently it's not affordable, hmm there's around 26'000'000 income tax payers in the UK, if we all paid just £1 per week into NI with the proviso that it ALL went into the NHS it would generate £106'000'000 per average month, year on year savings just to remain static in the NHS are around £10'000'000 per year for next 4 years per PCT/trust call it what you will...there are just under 100 Counties so roughly 100 lots of savings to be made, so in one month you'd make the one years savings for 10 PCT'S/Community Trusts, in 10 months all of them with a bit left over and that's just £1 per week, make it a £5 per week ( a bottle of half decent wine, two pints-ish , one dvd rental and a bag o spice, a magazine etc etc) then it would provide loads of funds to improve not just the NHS but Social Services, Education you know the really important things that one day we or our children will all need...we could have world class leading health care in this country only bad management and greed is stopping this achievement!
The reality is successive recent governments want it to appear unaffordable so they can bring in the private sector, I/we know that savings can and should be made in public services, there is wastage, suppliers often charge way above whaen they know the items are for the NHS etc, supplies in the NHS etc often DO NOT buy from the cheapest source often they are tied in to using preffered providers etc, however there is no need to cut jobs or services it's a lie!
The reality is successive recent governments want it to appear unaffordable so they can bring in the private sector, I/we know that savings can and should be made in public services, there is wastage, suppliers often charge way above whaen they know the items are for the NHS etc, supplies in the NHS etc often DO NOT buy from the cheapest source often they are tied in to using preffered providers etc, however there is no need to cut jobs or services it's a lie!
information on cycling in and around Chesterfield during the 1930's -1970's wanted
Re: NHS -privatisation!
blackbike wrote:I've no objection to NHS work being outsourced to private companies.
There are two main reasons for this.
1. People directly employed by the government tend to be very expensive. For some reason, they seem to get good pay for their skill level, superb pensions, shorter than average working weeks, above average holiday entitlements and extra days off after some bank holidays too. They also retire earlier than the rest of the population and take more time off for sickness. Thes facts don't just apply to skilled or stressed public servants, but also to office staff, administrators and people doing routine jobs comparable with many in the private sector.
2. Most of the things I use and need in my life are provided by private companies and I on the whole I am very satisfied. My house, my food, my car, my bikes, the aeroplanes I use, my gadgets etc etc are of good quality, safe and reliable. I see no reason why health care cannot be provided efficiently and well by private companies too.
Too often when we hear the phrase 'our NHS', it is spoken by an employee of the NHS. Unfortunately many of these employees do seem to behave as if they are the NHS rather than mere employees of it, and forget that it exists primarily to provide healthcare, not amenable jobs for them.
When I was 17 (a lot of years ago) I had the misfortune to fall off some cliffs. It did a bit of damage so I was in hospital for four months and total recovery took a whole lot longer than that. This was in the 1960's and I was "rescued" by Police, Fire and Ambulance services before being transported to the local hospital where I was put back together again.
Of course, being the 1960's I didn't have much choice about what happened. I really need convincing that I would have been better served if I had been able to elect the hospital that could best put me together again and perhaps shop around for the best priced ambulance service. That said, I might not have the limp that I still have and my jaw might have gone back together a bit straighter.
Of course, back in the 1960's private sector employees got a better deal too. Our wonderful system of capitalism and market fortces has sucked all the value out of the private sector so now there are very few decent pension schemes left outside of the public sector. Now this might be my age, but I happen to think that the world was a far better place back then than it is now. Mind you, there wasn't a CTC Forum back then either......
If it wasn't for cars, there wouldn't be the amount of tarmac that there is.
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thirdcrank
- Posts: 36780
- Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm
Re: NHS -privatisation!
daveg wrote: ... shop around for the best priced ambulance service. ....
Oh for the good old days:
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=26556&p=361023#p361023