BBC article on ludicrous cars

[Mick F]

Regardless, the point was not that my fire is efficient, but rather that 'energy payback' arguments are nonsensical.

the coal in your fire is finite, the wind on the hills isn't. see any difference?

We burn wood.
There's tons of the stuff out there, it grows faster than I can cut it.
Looks and feels to me that the wood is infinite too.

Too many damned trees out there. We should cut them down and provide heat for the needy.

[reohn2]

Too many damned trees out there. We should cut them down and provide heat for the needy.

I'm afraid if we all did that there'd be no trees left,which is what we've almost done,which is why we're producing more harmful gases than the trees can process into harmless gases.
The problem is that theres too many people and not enough trees! Because the people chop down trees quicker than they can grow or they chop down trees and then go on to use the land to rear beef cattle the cattle eat the saplings,and so on and so on...............'til theres nowt left.
Six+ billion of us at the last count,how much more of us can the planet sustain?
Ever watched a fox rid itself of fleas?
It picks up a stick in its mouth then slowly goes into a lake,slowly the fleas make their way to the fox's head ,then slowly the fox sinks its head under the water until all the fleas make their way onto its nose,then gradually the fleas go onto the stick.
The fox then lets go of the stick.
Result, no more irritation,this process doesn't get rid of all the fleas but enough to make the fox comfortable again.
Now look at human history,how many civilisations have grown and died out?
The planet can handle itself,its us that think we can handle the planet!
The fleas thought they owned the fox.


They didn't .

[CREPELLO]

^Well said that man!^

[CREPELLO]

I am genuinely asking if 'true cost' is the what these things are being assessed on or are we simply continuing the bad costing practises with newer technology whilst pretending we're better off...? Surely the provisioning cost is very important and very interesting if they are supposed to be providing an improvement over existing (which is sunk cost both in terms of £££ and carbon/C02). If that improvement is wiped out for the first 20 years (or whatever) by provisioning, that's a whole different ball game (particularly if the design life is limited to ~20 years)... I'm speculating here but if anyone knows 'the facts' let's hear them please.

The average wind farm will pay back the energy used in its manufacture within 3-5 months of operation
from....you might like to read all the FAQs, you might not link below either way
http://www.bwea.com/energy/myths.html

Disingenuous propaganda.

You seem very sure of that. I wish I had the absolute certainty that some of the contributors to this thread seem to exhibit when it comes to environmental issues.

Still, I've found this from the Sustainability Commission:
"Q: Don’t they [turbines] use more C02 in being constructed than they save?

A: No, wind farm pays back the carbon used in manufacture and construction within 3-10 months. Due to our current energy mix, all electricity generating plants will have some embodied energy from their manufacture and construction, and this is also true of wind turbine."

Unfortunately the Sustainability Commission has been de-commissioned by our far seeing government, so it will be more difficult for government and individuals to make evidence based judgements on development in the future. All that is left is the website http://www.sd-commission.org.uk/news.ph ... -power-qas

[boblo]

<snip>
The planet can handle itself,its us that think we can handle the planet!
The fleas thought they owned the fox.
They didn't .

That's a very good argument for idgnoring all the silly noise and letting mother earth get on with it. Give that man a drink

[reohn2]

<snip>
The planet can handle itself,its us that think we can handle the planet!
The fleas thought they owned the fox.
They didn't .

That's a very good argument for idgnoring all the silly noise and letting mother earth get on with it. Give that man a drink

No it isn't.
It's an arguement based based on fact.
Now whats your arguement? I haven't heard it yet!

[Mick F]

If everyone on the planet had ten trees each, they could keep themselves warm - permanently.

The problem with trees, is that they are used for other things. If all the trees were managed properly and allowed to re-grow, then cut sensitively, we wouldn't run out of them.

Have you ever seen companies cutting trees away from power lines, or people cutting hedges? What happens to the wood? Much - if not all - of it is chipped for compost or just left on the roads. If it was collected, it could provide heating. One wheelbarrow load is easily enough for 24hrs of heat in an average home.

Utopian view?

[reohn2]

If everyone on the planet had ten trees each, they could keep themselves warm - permanently.

If is a small word trees are quite big.
If trees were currency as you seem to be claiming they could,the rich would buy them all up for themselves.

The problem with trees, is that they are used for other things. If all the trees were managed properly and allowed to re-grow, then cut sensitively, we wouldn't run out of them.

Mick you've missed a fundimental side to the trees solution.

Have you ever seen companies cutting trees away from power lines, or people cutting hedges? What happens to the wood? Much - if not all - of it is chipped for compost or just left on the roads. If it was collected, it could provide heating. One wheelbarrow load is easily enough for 24hrs of heat in an average home.

Some countries compost it or incinerate some of it for either heat or electric.

Utopian view?

Utopia only exsists for an ever decreasing minority in an overpopulated world.

[kwackers]

That's a very good argument for idgnoring all the silly noise and letting mother earth get on with it. Give that man a drink

No it isn't.
It's an arguement based based on fact.
Now whats your arguement? I haven't heard it yet!

+1

Sadly a typical attitude in this country; "Leave it alone and it'll sort itself out".
Seems to ignore the fact that we have been leaving it alone and it hasn't.

[snibgo]

Our puny little efforts are entirely futile in isolation. My driving to and from Bethesda makes zero difference when Chinese (or Indian, or Phillipino or gasp.....British) coal fuelled power stations are belching out tonnes of crap each and every day.

My conduct makes no meaningful difference to a planet's energy consumption, CO2 output, pollution or anything else. That's obvious because a very tiny part of a large world can't make any meaningful difference.

But I can make a meaningful difference to my own energy consumption, CO2 output, pollution and anything else. Naturally I don't want to because I'm selfish. I want everyone else to reduce their use of petro-chemicals so I can continue enjoying my supercharged supercar or even Ford Fiesta. That's the tragedy of the commons.