BBC article on ludicrous cars

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hubgearfreak
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Re: BBC article on ludicrous cars

Postby hubgearfreak » 3 Mar 2012, 5:06pm

kwackers wrote:it will always be more efficient to use it in a static system than a mobile one.


that's true. but you've got transmission losses. transformer losses. charger losses. not all the charge going into a battery comes out losses. motors aren't 100%. i'd also be interested to find out quite how much less mass than a diesel engine are a car's worth of batteries.

additionally, my camera, rechargeable drill and anything else with rechargeable batteries don't seem to have the lifetime that's claimed for them, whilst my motor engineer tells of skoda taxis with 400,000 miles on them.

my knowledge of physics leads me to believe that taking 1400kg of machine around with you is a good way to waste energy whether that energy has been burnt inside or outside of car. public transport, walking and cycling has a future - not cars

snibgo
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Re: BBC article on ludicrous cars

Postby snibgo » 3 Mar 2012, 6:59pm

philg wrote:Li-ion battery packs are pretty heavy too - and if you want the 500 mile range of a 5 seater ICE car then currently prohibitively so (and expensive)

True. However, 98% of car journeys are less than 50 miles (DfT NTS0308).

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philg
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Re: BBC article on ludicrous cars

Postby philg » 3 Mar 2012, 7:15pm

snibgo wrote:
philg wrote:Li-ion battery packs are pretty heavy too - and if you want the 500 mile range of a 5 seater ICE car then currently prohibitively so (and expensive)

True. However, 98% of car journeys are less than 50 miles (DfT NTS0308).

Also true; but probably 98% of all cars will occasionally do journeys of much more than 50 miles - will the EV owner need a second (conventional) car?

kwackers
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Re: BBC article on ludicrous cars

Postby kwackers » 3 Mar 2012, 7:15pm

snibgo wrote:
philg wrote:Li-ion battery packs are pretty heavy too - and if you want the 500 mile range of a 5 seater ICE car then currently prohibitively so (and expensive)

True. However, 98% of car journeys are less than 50 miles (DfT NTS0308).

I agree, electric cars make sense when you're talking lightweight inner city vehicles. It starts going pear shaped when you try to create electric equivalents of modern overweight, overpowered stuff.

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Re: BBC article on ludicrous cars

Postby kwackers » 3 Mar 2012, 7:16pm

philg wrote:
snibgo wrote:
philg wrote:Li-ion battery packs are pretty heavy too - and if you want the 500 mile range of a 5 seater ICE car then currently prohibitively so (and expensive)

True. However, 98% of car journeys are less than 50 miles (DfT NTS0308).

Also true; but probably 98% of all cars will occasionally do journeys of much more than 50 miles - will the EV owner need a second (conventional) car?

That's what trains are for. Failing that - hire something.

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Mick F
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Re: BBC article on ludicrous cars

Postby Mick F » 3 Mar 2012, 8:05pm

hubgearfreak wrote:
Mick F wrote:The CO2 output of electric cars is minute compared to petrol/diesel cars


would you care to back up that outrageous claim with an independant and respectable reference? because it sounds unlikely to my understanding of basic physics


The full quote ..........
Mick F wrote:The CO2 output of electric cars is minute compared to petrol/diesel cars even though the electricity to power them has to be generated.
An electric car has a "varied" CO2 output depending upon which country it is being charged.

Since making my above statement, I have looked it up some more. It seems that what I've read before isn't quite true. Not my fault, I was only repeating what I read. Sorry.

I take back my "is minute" statement, and put back "is only slightly less".
Mick F. Cornwall

snibgo
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Re: BBC article on ludicrous cars

Postby snibgo » 3 Mar 2012, 8:14pm

kwackers wrote:That's what trains are for. Failing that - hire something.

Yup.

EV isn't a direct replacement for burning fossil fuels to drag a tonne or more of metal that is only rarely needed for long trips, family holidays etc. Small, light, slow EV is a reasonable replacement for ICE cars for most journeys. (Push-bikes are better, natch.)

Energy is expensive, and the cost is in more than money. We need to stop wasting it.

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Cunobelin
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Re: BBC article on ludicrous cars

Postby Cunobelin » 3 Mar 2012, 8:20pm

philg wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:As a concept these may have a significant potential, but are saddled with the reputation of being slow, poorly designed and impractical for daily use

And not in the least bit green whilst electricity generation remains non-renewable (although the transfer of pollution from cities has some benefit)


Hence the use of the words "may have a significant potential"

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Mick F
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Re: BBC article on ludicrous cars

Postby Mick F » 3 Mar 2012, 8:29pm

snibgo wrote:........ slow EV is a reasonable replacement for ICE cars for most journeys. (Push-bikes are better, natch.).........
Sort of agree with you, but push-bikes are only of any use where you can use them.

Round here, people - other than me - don't use them. Hills are prohibitive to bicycles.

I drive the Community Bus a couple of times a month. Some of the people I pick up can't walk to the shops! ............ actually, some or most can walk TO the shops, it's that they can't walk back again up long 1in4 hills with their shopping.

Bicycles aren't the answer for everybody, much as we'd like to be.
Mick F. Cornwall

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CREPELLO
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Re: BBC article on ludicrous cars

Postby CREPELLO » 3 Mar 2012, 8:40pm

Mick F wrote:
snibgo wrote:........ slow EV is a reasonable replacement for ICE cars for most journeys. (Push-bikes are better, natch.).........
Sort of agree with you, but push-bikes are only of any use where you can use them.

Round here, people - other than me - don't use them. Hills are prohibitive to bicycles.

I drive the Community Bus a couple of times a month. Some of the people I pick up can't walk to the shops! ............ actually, some or most can walk TO the shops, it's that they can't walk back again up long 1in4 hills with their shopping.

Bicycles aren't the answer for everybody, much as we'd like to be.

And what about an electric bike? With a trailer for those larger loads, naturally :wink:

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Re: BBC article on ludicrous cars

Postby snibgo » 3 Mar 2012, 9:12pm

Mick F wrote:Bicycles aren't the answer for everybody, much as we'd like to be.

True. Horses for courses, so to speak.

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hubgearfreak
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Re: BBC article on ludicrous cars

Postby hubgearfreak » 3 Mar 2012, 9:24pm

Mick F wrote:I take back my "is minute" statement, and put back "is only slightly less".


that's better, but still suspect.

perhaps a well designed (LIGHTWEIGHT) electric car that's trying to prove a point regardless of cost is slightly better than the average ICE car. but if you compared like with like, ie. the most expensive, lightest ICE car with a similar electric, there'd be nothing in it.

for the first year at any rate. after 5 years or 10, when one's on it's 4th set of betteries and the other's still on it's original engine, the CBA looks different again

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Mick F
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Re: BBC article on ludicrous cars

Postby Mick F » 4 Mar 2012, 7:48am

Yes, that's the rub with electric vehicles - batteries.
I have no doubt that in years to come, they will have got round this problem.
Mick F. Cornwall

boblo
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Re: BBC article on ludicrous cars

Postby boblo » 4 Mar 2012, 9:24am

It's interesting that this thread is now back to discussing ludicrous vehicles after all the fulminating.... What's more ludicrous than a car costing £20k - £30k only being able to do max ~200 miles before a multi hour recharge and needing a new set of ~£10k batteries every 5 years?

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Mick F
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Re: BBC article on ludicrous cars

Postby Mick F » 4 Mar 2012, 9:57am

Horses for courses.

I've considered an electric vehicle many times in recent months. Our car's mileage has dropped to a level where it may not be viable to even own it. An non-ludricous electric car could easily suit our needs.

10mile round trip to the shops? Perhaps 20miles if we went further afield. Plug it in when we got home and it's ready for the next trip next week. The car could be light and small, and we don't need to spend a fortune. A secondhand Gwiz can be had for only a few grand.
http://www.greencarsite.co.uk/carsforsa ... 20sale.htm
Mick F. Cornwall