Bravery/Cowadice

[stewartpratt]

"Cowadice"?

Is that a leather saddlebag?

[snibgo]

On Radio4 just now, Prof Ian Palmer (ex-SAS) associated courage with selflessness. In his view, a selfish act cannot be courageous.

I agree that selflessness is one connotation of courage, but I don't agree that it's exclusive. Context is everything, of course, and Prof Palmer's experience is military, where "courage" carries a particular meaning.

[kwackers]

That simply puts you into the realms of philosophy.
There's no such thing as a truly selfless act, simply helping other people releases endorphins and gives you that warm glow...

Like I said, it's a tin of worms...

[pete75]

Bravery really implies that there's the likelihood of a poor outcome for you and that you understand this.

People cycle on vicious dual carriageways like the A1. If they understand the risks it certainly matches what you say but is it bravery or foolhardiness? And are the two interchangeable ?

[PH]

Only good guys are brave.
That is the rule.

Yes a rule, but not a definition.

Concise OED:
BRAVE. showing courage. endure or face (unpleasant conditions) with courage.
COURAGE. the ability to do something that frightens one.
COWARD. a person contemptibly lacking courage.

The definition is concise and shows why the judge could have been wrong.
By that definition, doing something that didn't frighten one wouldn't be brave, however much it might frighten someone else. It's quite possible that the burglar accepted any likely out come without fear, as it turned out he had little to fear from this judge.

[thirdcrank]

...There's no such thing as a truly selfless act, simply helping other people releases endorphins and gives you that warm glow...

I appreciate what you are saying and I'm sure it applies in many cases but I think you are too quick to dismiss true altruism. A case that springs to mind was in a newspaper obituary a few years ago and I regret I cannot remember the name of the deceased. This chap had been a dock worker and a colleague working overhead had been trapped in machinery which was slowly crushing him to death. His rescuer took hold of a slowly moving hawser which gradually pulled him to the trapped man. It was inevitable from the outset that he would be severely injured if he carried out the plan but as one of his hands was slowly crushed he used his free hand to effect a rescue. Both survived, with the rescuer losing his hand. He was awarded the Albert Medal, at that time the highest award for civilian gallantry. In 1971, the Albert Medal and Edward Medal (for bravery in mines and quarries) were discontinued and holders were invited to "translate" their decorations into the George Cross. This chap declined the opportunity to visit Buckingham Palace to meet the Queen and lived out his life in complete obscurity. He may have had some sort of warm glow afterwards - I don't know, but I think at the time, he recognised what what possible and did it. Even allowing for a bit of embroidery by the historians and my memory, that struck me as a a very selfless act.

(Edited after a bit of research.)

[kwackers]

People cycle on vicious dual carriageways like the A1. If they understand the risks it certainly matches what you say but is it bravery or foolhardiness? And are the two interchangeable ?

Like I said, there's the subjective issue of risk/reward that can swing it either way. In such an example I suspect it varies from observer to observer.

Again I doubt anyone cycling along the A1 truly things the outcome is poor (unless they've decided that perhaps their death would be the rallying call for cyclists rights. In which case they're probably being both brave and stupid).

[kwackers]

I appreciate what you are saying and I'm sure it applies in many cases but I think you are too quick to dismiss true altruism.
<snip>

Altruism is a mechanism that's been shown to exist in most social animals. There's quite a lot of debate on the why of it's existence but logically I'd guess that like all 'attributes' we possess the amount will vary from person to person, so I guess some folk may well be 'over-altruistic'.

I think what's interesting about stories like that is trying to put ourselves in the same scenario and wondering how we'd do. I expect we'd all like to think we'd do the same but worry that we wouldn't whilst respecting those that did...

[pete75]

Again I doubt anyone cycling along the A1 truly things the outcome is poor (unless they've decided that perhaps their death would be the rallying call for cyclists rights. In which case they're probably being both brave and stupid).

Either that or completely barking.......

[dodger]

I'm not keen to equate bravery to courage. Bravery is undertaking an action without regard to your personal wellbeing, perhaps as a one-off event - sometimes I think a brave person who doesn't succeed in his/her action might simply be regarded as a fool.
Courage, on the other hand, implies a willingness to face up to constant adversity; for example, a person with a facial blemish or another obvious disability, a person likely to be targeted by another violent person because of their role, gender, sexuality etc.
Perhaps it's a fine line, but to me there is a lot of difference between a single act, possibly undertaken without thought, and living with a constant threat of some kind.

[daveg]

The victors write the history books so bravery is always on the side of the victors.

Just following orders is what the others do.

As far as burgling is concerned it must get the adrenalin pumping so that basic fight / flight mecahnism will jump in which in other circumstances might be called brave.

I've read some of what the Judge said. Could have chosen his words better I suspect, and handing a multiple burglar a non custodial sentence was going to raise eyebrows even without any comments.

It keeps the Daily Mail's sense ot outrage busy

[thirdcrank]

Perhaps we might say that to go breaking into house needs a type of boldness or perhaps bottle - it's certainly not for the faint-hearted. However, if the word gets around amongst burglars that judges (or even a lone judge) think that burgling is in any way praiseworthy, that's hardly likely to act as a deterrent.

If there's one thing you ought to be able to depend on in a judge, it's good judgment.

When Judge janes Pickles asked "Who are the Beatles?" I understood that he was ensuring counsel didn't get away with taking things for granted, but the question back-fired in a big way.These people need to be a bit more media savvy.

(daveg - Have your ears been buzzing? I was talking about you on another thread this afternoon.)

[daveg]

(daveg - Have your ears been buzzing? I was talking about you on another thread this afternoon.)

It wasn't me Guv, honest, or its a fair cop, whichever is appropriate!

Sorry I only pop on here now and then at the moment. Been away a fair bit and quite busy. I'm afraid that Twitter has sucked me in!

What's the thread I've got the mention on?

[thirdcrank]

... What's the thread I've got the mention on?

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=66407&p=581420#p581406

[daveg]

... What's the thread I've got the mention on?

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=66407&p=581420#p581406

I'm told that the MoJ don't like the Judicial Bench declaring their credentials on the web these days and are offering approriate advice. I'm sure that the advice will be well intentioned but whilst I've never boasted the position neither have I tried to hide it. I think I'm just plain old fashioned in beleiving that we are all here to help each other, much the same as T/C shares his experience.

The one thing I've always been aware of is just how stressful people find attending court, and that's in any capacity, so remain happy to share views and opinions in personal capacity.