Drunk in charge... ?

[Punk_shore]

It's nice and warm in the tea shop, compared with outside.

I understand it can be an offence to be drunk in charge of a bicycle. I also understand that it can be an offence to be over an alcohol limit when driving or riding a motor vehicle.

Does anyone know if there is a specified breath or blood alcohol concentration maximum limit when a cyclist is suspected of being drunk in charge of a bicycle, please?

This does not relate to a case that I know of, apart from where a cyclist (who had been drinking alcohol) was struck and killed by a car, whose driver had not seen him. The coroner's court held that the cyclist had contributed to the accident because he was over the drink concentration limit for a motorist.

Anyone want some Earl Grey tea?

[gaz]

There is no specified breath or blood alcohol concentration maximum limit applicable to being in charge of a bicycle.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/contents

Cycling while under the influence
It is an offence under section 30 of the 1988 Act to ride a bicycle on a “road or other public place” if one is unfit due to drink or drugs:
A person who, when riding a cycle on a road or other public place, is unfit to ride through drink or drugs (that is to say, is under the influence of drink or a drug to such an extent as to be incapable of having proper control of the cycle) is guilty of an offence.
In Scotland a constable may arrest without warrant a person committing an offence under this section.

The police have no powers to require a cyclist to give a specimen of breath, blood or urine for analysis.

The UK maximum punishment for this offence is a £1,000 fine. Poland is somewhat less lenient. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19534397

[rjb]

Down here in somerset they are using mollases mixed with road salt to spread on the road. Is it any wonder then that after this has had time to ferment that cyclists and peds are "wobbling" all over the road.

[thirdcrank]

This topic and versions of it have been discussed before.

The breathalyser only applies to mechanically propelled vehicles.

s 30 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 creates the cycling while unfit through drink or drugs offence

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/30

I've no recollection of even the remotest involvement in a prosecution for this offence. I presume it would be proved in much the same way as the motoring version - medical examination etc.

FWIW I think anybody coming to attention would probably be arrested for simple drunkenness or perhaps being drunk and disorderly, but s 12 of the Licensing Act, 1872, creates the offence of being found drunk in charge of a carriage. The evidence of a police officer would be enough to secure a conviction for being drunk. Corkery v Carpenter is an interesting report (for people who like that sort of thing) of appeal proceeding heard by the then Lord Chief Justice Goddard. (He was the judge who sentenced Derek Bentley - and plenty more - to death) Scroll down to p 5 in this link

http://www.federationpress.com.au/pdf/Pt3WC.pdf

I've posted before that the blood/alcohol level of people killed in road traffic collisions is routinely analysed and I think a reading above the prescibed limit for driving would give the other party a "get out of jail free" card.

(I've tried to summarise everything I've posted on the subject before.)
=====================================================
Others have beaten me to it. On the subject of breathalysing cyclists, as gaz says, the police have no power (and BTW no need) to breathalyse cyclists, but for anybody confident they would be under the limit, I'd say accept the offer if it's made.

[531colin]

So the cyclist who was killed in "Punk Shore's" OP would have had his blood analysed without his consent, and the result used to blame him for getting himself killed by a driver who "hadn't seen him".
Sounds about right.....

[The Mechanic]

More likely that this was discovered in the post mortem. I don't think the dead person had any choice in the matter.

[Mick F]

Talking of dead people, the inventor of the breathalyser died today, aged 77.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-21005899

[thirdcrank]

So the cyclist who was killed in "Punk Shore's" OP would have had his blood analysed without his consent, and the result used to blame him for getting himself killed by a driver who "hadn't seen him".
Sounds about right.....

Unless cause of death is certified by a doctor who has recently seen the deceased when they were alive, there will generally be a post mortem on behalf of the coroner. This will inevitably include a blood/alcohol analysis, unless the deceased survived in hospital for several days after the crash. Unless something has changed recently, a death in a road accident requires a coroners' inquest. One of the purpses of the inquest is to ascertain the cause of death. If there is the possibility of a prosecution, the inquest will be adjourned until that has been resolved. If consideration is being given to prosecuting anybody, anybody then the prosecutor must consider all the evidence. Any evidence of intoxication / sobriety is likely to be a factor and it's something the defence will latch onto. All the evidence in the possession of the prosecution must be disclosed to the defence. A prosecution for any of the "causing death by..." offences will be heard by a judge and jury in the Crown Court. I think it's likely that the defence would make a big issue of a high reading. In the same way that Nelson's Column, London buses, football pitches and "an area the size of Wales" are used as units of comparison, multiples of the legal drink/drive limit tend to be the yardstick.

[danfoto]

Corkery v Carpenter is an interesting report (for people who like that sort of thing) of appeal proceeding heard by the then Lord Chief Justice Goddard. (He was the judge who sentenced Derek Bentley - and plenty more - to death) Scroll down to p 5 in this link

http://www.federationpress.com.au/pdf/Pt3WC.pdf

Ref p 6 of the aforesaid, what on earth is a cattle engine? Enquiring minds need to know!

[thirdcrank]

... Ref p 6 of the aforesaid, what on earth is a cattle engine? Enquiring minds need to know!

If I may borrow an expression from dominoes, "I'm knocking."

It's not one of the many definitions I committed to memory 45 years ago, nor is it one of the obscure groups on my paper driving licence. It's apparently one of those cases where legislation worked: being drunk in charge of a cattle engine isn't the social problem it may once have been.

In the absence of anything from somebody who knows, I'll guess it's some sort of ox cart. There's a general primciple of English law that if a statute includes a list, then the list will be interpreted to mean that everything is of broadly the same kind: it's the ejusdem generis rule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_interpretation

[531colin]

If the police have no powers to demand a specimen from a cyclist, then the cyclist can decline to provide a specimen.....unless, of course, the cyclist is dead, when the specimen will be taken post mortem....no consent required?
It seems a bit harsh, then, that a cyclist killed by a driver who "didn't see him" has his blood sampled at post mortem and the results used to blame the victim.

at least, it seems harsh to me, if nobody else.

[thirdcrank]

Life can be very harsh and death is generally a lot worse.

This type of thing is often survivor's justice anyway, unless there is some really good evidence eg good independent witnesses, breathalyser evidence against the driver.

Remember, the driver is a competent witness for their own defence if they choose to give evidence. After a fatal collision, the other person who might have been expected to have something to say will be unable to give evidence.

On a similar theme, I've mentioned more than once on here, that around here at least, it's standard for the police to photograph a pedestrian / cyclist casualty's clothing on behalf of the coroner to show how they might have appeared to your driver who didn't see them.

[danfoto]

In the absence of anything from somebody who knows, I'll guess it's some sort of ox cart. There's a general primciple of English law that if a statute includes a list, then the list will be interpreted to mean that everything is of broadly the same kind: it's the ejusdem generis rule.

Yet again, I am obliged to you Sir - this time for the knowledge that I am not alone in my ignorance of cattle engines.

A cattle engine does sound like a fine thing, though.

I wonder if they had sheep engines too ...

[thirdcrank]

danfoto

The thirdcrank legal team has been working hard to solve this and the answer is to be found in the actual legislation. The way it was laid out in my link was wrong, in a bizarre way. (I wonder if it's some sort of deliberate mistake, set to see if law students are as diligent in their reading of the course materials as you were. )

The Licensing Act, 1872 has been heavily amended over the years, but dear old s 12 remains pretty much as it was (except that imprisonment with hard labour isn't included as a punishment.)

... who is drunk while in charge on any highway or other public place of any carriage, horse, cattle, or steam engine, ...

is the relevant bit and the comma after cattle looks decisive to me.

Those of our number who compare motor vehicles with firearms may not be surprised to hear that their views were shared by the Victorian legislators, although, to be fair, neither the motor car (nor indeed the cattle engine) had been invented.

... who is drunk when in possession of any loaded firearms, may be apprehended ...

That's subject to the same 40 bob fine. (Two quid in new money.)
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/35-36/94

No armed back up in those days to help out, either.

[Mike Sales]

... who is drunk while in charge on any highway or other public place of any carriage, horse, cattle, or steam engine, ...

is the relevant bit and the comma after cattle looks decisive to me.

Thanks for finding and posting that. I have a vague memory of a man on Anglesey being done for "drunk in charge of a herd of cows". I was beginning to doubt it was possible.