Does anyone else find........

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JohnW
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Re: Does anyone else find........

Postby JohnW » 22 Mar 2013, 10:56pm

Si wrote:..............the problem with the interent I guess - pretty easy to misunderstand the meanings...............


..............and don't I know it.............

Shootist
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Re: Does anyone else find........

Postby Shootist » 23 Mar 2013, 12:07pm

dodger wrote:You need to differentiate between the Church and the hierarchy. The Church is actually the people, and there should be no question about allowing them to believe and practice their religion. It's not the Church that is the problem.
However, the hierarchy, as in all large organisations, are often more interested in power - just watch the jockeying to be the next pope.
The biggest problem with the Catholic Church has been the power imbalance between the clergy and the congregation. Those who can wield some sort of power over others and do so to satisfy their own gratification are not just in the Catholic Church but appear everywhere, including, it seems, the BBC. The Catholic Church clergy, however, that have abused others have a particularly unpleasant streak, exacerbated by the frustrations of supposedly being celibate, and they have used their supposed holiness to keep people quiet, just like Jimmy Savile used his celebrity status.
Ever watched the Magdelene Sisters film?? So accurate a picture of some of the clergy (including nuns and monks, especially the infamous Christian Brothers)
BUT - they're not all like that, even though sometimes you wonder!!


An interesting approach to defining the problems of the church. Apply it to other religions and it becomes even more interesting. Particularly when referring to Islam, where the 'church' is much more 'the people'.
Pacifists cannot accept the statement "Those who 'abjure' violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf.", despite it being "grossly obvious."
[George Orwell]

reohn2
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Re: Does anyone else find........

Postby reohn2 » 23 Mar 2013, 1:03pm

The problem with any religion is when it believes itself to be exclusively of God(Supreme Being,Spirit,Entity,Father or Mother FTM,Maker) and as such that there is no other way to approach God.
This is exclusivity and singular which leaves no other way possible and in turn leads to an attitude of my religion is right and yours is wrong,or your god is a false one and mine is the real one,history is scattered with the result of such exclusivity.
My gang is righter than yours,is division and anti God.
God is the Whole the completeness of,from the dog turds on the street to Universe and or other Universes,seen or unseen.The pettiness and insular out look shown by religion is in essence a power struggle however grand,good natured or with the best intention.
My 2d worth
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Si
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Re: Does anyone else find........

Postby Si » 23 Mar 2013, 2:08pm

reohn2 wrote:The problem with any religion is when it believes itself to be exclusively of God(Supreme Being,Spirit,Entity,Father or Mother FTM,Maker) and as such that there is no other way to approach God.
This is exclusivity and singular which leaves no other way possible and in turn leads to an attitude of my religion is right and yours is wrong,or your god is a false one and mine is the real one,history is scattered with the result of such exclusivity.


Bit like science then, which for 99.9% of its adherents depends on faith.

JohnW
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Re: Does anyone else find........

Postby JohnW » 23 Mar 2013, 2:11pm

reohn2 wrote:..........My 2d worth


.........you're supposed to put more than that in the collection r2........

reohn2
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Re: Does anyone else find........

Postby reohn2 » 23 Mar 2013, 2:28pm

JohnW wrote:
reohn2 wrote:..........My 2d worth


.........you're supposed to put more than that in the collection r2........


Oops :oops: thought no one was looking! :wink:
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reohn2
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Re: Does anyone else find........

Postby reohn2 » 23 Mar 2013, 2:29pm

Si wrote:
reohn2 wrote:The problem with any religion is when it believes itself to be exclusively of God(Supreme Being,Spirit,Entity,Father or Mother FTM,Maker) and as such that there is no other way to approach God.
This is exclusivity and singular which leaves no other way possible and in turn leads to an attitude of my religion is right and yours is wrong,or your god is a false one and mine is the real one,history is scattered with the result of such exclusivity.


Bit like science then, which for 99.9% of its adherents depends on faith.

Could you expand on that?
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Si
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Re: Does anyone else find........

Postby Si » 23 Mar 2013, 2:44pm

reohn2 wrote:
Si wrote:
reohn2 wrote:The problem with any religion is when it believes itself to be exclusively of God(Supreme Being,Spirit,Entity,Father or Mother FTM,Maker) and as such that there is no other way to approach God.
This is exclusivity and singular which leaves no other way possible and in turn leads to an attitude of my religion is right and yours is wrong,or your god is a false one and mine is the real one,history is scattered with the result of such exclusivity.


Bit like science then, which for 99.9% of its adherents depends on faith.

Could you expand on that?


Yes, many people suggest (maybe not in so many words) that religion is silly and science is the one true way because everything that science says is actually provable. But virtually none of the people saying this have bothered to prove it for themselves, thus they rely on their faith in what the scientists tell them....just like followers of a religion might rely on their faith in what their bishops, popes, rabbis, etc tell them.

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meic
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Re: Does anyone else find........

Postby meic » 23 Mar 2013, 2:56pm

The Catholic Church, rather like China, is absolutely massive.

So not too surprising that a lot can happen in it. We are able to see all the reports of 40 years and two continents flooding in at once.
Yma o Hyd

kwackers
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Re: Does anyone else find........

Postby kwackers » 23 Mar 2013, 5:38pm

Si wrote:Yes, many people suggest (maybe not in so many words) that religion is silly and science is the one true way because everything that science says is actually provable. But virtually none of the people saying this have bothered to prove it for themselves, thus they rely on their faith in what the scientists tell them....just like followers of a religion might rely on their faith in what their bishops, popes, rabbis, etc tell them.

I'm not sure that is relevant.

How many people on here could prove most scientific discoveries/principles for themselves? Hardly any I suspect. Isn't that what peer reviews are about?
It's the fact they're not capable of proving them that allows religion the inroads into most folks lives. (imo)

Shootist
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Re: Does anyone else find........

Postby Shootist » 23 Mar 2013, 6:04pm

Si wrote:Yes, many people suggest (maybe not in so many words) that religion is silly and science is the one true way because everything that science says is actually provable. But virtually none of the people saying this have bothered to prove it for themselves, thus they rely on their faith in what the scientists tell them....just like followers of a religion might rely on their faith in what their bishops, popes, rabbis, etc tell them.


Not quite. Religions tell me that I will go to heaven or hell depending upon what I do or don't do. None of it can be proved at all, with the only 'evidence' being "It says so in this book." Part of the problem is, there are many books, all different.

Science tells me many facts that I can verify myself. Electricity is one. If I stick my fingers into an electrical socket I can feel the electricity dribbling out. With very little effort I can prove the existence of gravity. Water boils, water freezes, and putting my hand in either will confirm that fact, along with certain laws of thermodynamics, and physiology. If my physics teacher told me many things, and verified them in front of me, then I am more inclined to believe the things he tells me that he hasn't had the equipment on hand to prove. Neither will I fly in any passenger jet in which the pilot insists is held aloft by faith alone. Furthermore, if the things said are important to me then I could verify them for the most part. If a priest, vicar, imam, witch doctor, or any of their ilk tells me something, especially if the others disagree with it, nothing whatever is proved, other than the gullibility of their followers.

The difference between religion and science is infinite. To suggest they are alike is as stupid as comparing the ignorance of two equally stupid people who have different ideas and then assuming you have proved something, apart from the fact that they are both stupid.

Faith. Then nastiest little word in the English language.
Pacifists cannot accept the statement "Those who 'abjure' violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf.", despite it being "grossly obvious."
[George Orwell]

JohnW
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Re: Does anyone else find........

Postby JohnW » 23 Mar 2013, 8:04pm

Shootist wrote:.............Faith. Then nastiest little word in the English language.


Dear me, shootist - whilst it really isn't for any of us, and certainly not for me, to try to persuade someone else to change his beliefs or disbeliefs, if that really does express your views and belief, then I have to be sorry for you.

Don't misunderstand this, I don't express myself very well, and expressions of concern can so easily be misrepresented as criticisms, but on the basis that we are all friends on this forum, although at widely varying levels and within a very broad interpretation of the word, I really find it so sad if you mean that.

reohn2
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Re: Does anyone else find........

Postby reohn2 » 23 Mar 2013, 8:07pm

Si wrote:Yes, many people suggest (maybe not in so many words) that religion is silly and science is the one true way because everything that science says is actually provable. But virtually none of the people saying this have bothered to prove it for themselves, thus they rely on their faith in what the scientists tell them....just like followers of a religion might rely on their faith in what their bishops, popes, rabbis, etc tell them.


The problem is IMHO that religion promises a lot after death and a peace of mind knowing that during life if you believe.
The problem then is that it's open to abuse by unscrupulous leaders and can become a business opportunity,these leaders can and do set themselves up to be beyond reproach,Catholicism being a prime example,but by no means alone.

Science is a search for the truth,the problem is the same as with religion when the unscrupulous get involved,obviously there will be mistakes made by the scrupulous which can be rectified when realised.
Religion doesn't offer that option once the the doctine and dogma takes hold,obviously psuedo science suffers the same problems,but true science is a learning experience and a search for truth,whereas with religion the rules have been set in stone(literaly in some cases) and as such everything is judged on that.
Then of course there's the abuses of those rules.
Take the Jewish and Christian law "You shall not kill" is that an absolute or not? If so then there's no problem,if not immediately things begin to get complicated.Who says who should be killed and who shouldn't?
I could go on but I'm a slow typist,it's a big subject and TBH I don't know where to begin :?
But what I will say is that religion can and does do a lot of good plus it gives a lot of people solace,but a lot of bad is done in the name of God,which is the worst evil IMO.
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JohnW
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Re: Does anyone else find........

Postby JohnW » 23 Mar 2013, 8:08pm

reohn2 wrote:
JohnW wrote:
reohn2 wrote:..........My 2d worth


.........you're supposed to put more than that in the collection r2........


Oops :oops: thought no one was looking! :wink:


............I'm like that, a real nosey parker...........!

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meic
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Re: Does anyone else find........

Postby meic » 23 Mar 2013, 8:09pm

Science tells me many facts that I can verify myself.


This rather shows Si's point about it being a matter of faith. These things dont happen because of science.

Also just like religion we have science and we have "the church of science" by which I mean the authorities who decide which bit of scientific orthodoxy is correct at the moment.

It is quite easy to "prove" Newton's laws of mechanics in your garage and this was taken on faith until some silly rebel disproved it.

Personally I quite like the example of electricity when discussing science, especially when they say that science has disproved something as the experiments are often the equivalent of disproving electricity by using wires made entirely of rubber.

Dont get me wrong, I am a scientist not a Christian. However I am a scientist who believes in the true quest for knowledge rather than the blinkered support of the orthodoxy. If I could believe in God, I certainly would not let a middleman take his cut out of that relationship.
Last edited by meic on 23 Mar 2013, 8:12pm, edited 1 time in total.
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