Does anyone else find........

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reohn2
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Re: Does anyone else find........

Postby reohn2 » 23 Mar 2013, 8:11pm

meic wrote:The Catholic Church, rather like China, is absolutely massive.......

And easily broken :wink:
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meic
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Re: Does anyone else find........

Postby meic » 23 Mar 2013, 8:15pm

It is funny that you should say that about two of the longest lived human "creations".

They seem to have held together better than most other things.
Yma o Hyd

JohnW
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Re: Does anyone else find........

Postby JohnW » 23 Mar 2013, 8:18pm

reohn2 wrote:
meic wrote:The Catholic Church, rather like China, is absolutely massive.......

And easily broken :wink:


Whilst I don't think you meant to r2, you may have opened a can of worms here because down the two millennia since it's inception, empires have come and gone but the catholic church is still with us...........even the Chinese Empire, such as it currently is, will eventually go the same way as all the others.

Shootist
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Re: Does anyone else find........

Postby Shootist » 23 Mar 2013, 9:06pm

JohnW wrote:
Shootist wrote:.............Faith. Then nastiest little word in the English language.


Dear me, shootist - whilst it really isn't for any of us, and certainly not for me, to try to persuade someone else to change his beliefs or disbeliefs, if that really does express your views and belief, then I have to be sorry for you.

Don't misunderstand this, I don't express myself very well, and expressions of concern can so easily be misrepresented as criticisms, but on the basis that we are all friends on this forum, although at widely varying levels and within a very broad interpretation of the word, I really find it so sad if you mean that.


Two scientists stand on Beachy Head. They jump off at the same time, and will land at the same time, barring slight differences caused by their weight, shape, and the aerodynamics of their clothes.. In that I have faith, based upon scientific knowledge.

A Christian will have faith, if he is a good Christian. But does he have more faith than the Muslim suicide bomber who willingly goes to meet his maker? Or than any serious adherent of any other major religion? You have to have a lot more faith to blow yourself to bits than you do to preach in the town centre on a Saturday night.

I don't need your sorrow, and your sadness does not concern me. To plan your life on blind faith, which by definition has absolutely no justification, otherwise it would not be faith, but science, strikes me as a triumph of ignorance over reality. I am happy to live without such a curse.
Pacifists cannot accept the statement "Those who 'abjure' violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf.", despite it being "grossly obvious."
[George Orwell]

Shootist
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Location: Derby

Re: Does anyone else find........

Postby Shootist » 23 Mar 2013, 9:28pm

JohnW wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
meic wrote:The Catholic Church, rather like China, is absolutely massive.......

And easily broken :wink:


Whilst I don't think you meant to r2, you may have opened a can of worms here because down the two millennia since it's inception, empires have come and gone but the catholic church is still with us...........even the Chinese Empire, such as it currently is, will eventually go the same way as all the others.


And Buddhism has been knocking around for 500 years or so longer than Christianity, and is currently classed as one of the fastest growing religions. I will draw your attention to the saying attributed to the Jesuits, "Give me a child for his first seven years and I will give you the man." The Catholic Church has had centuries to work out it's methods. And what a pretty piece of work it is. (That last is irony, for those unable to tell). I would also suggest that the word more associated with Catholicism than 'faith' is 'guilt', which is often much the same thing there.
Pacifists cannot accept the statement "Those who 'abjure' violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf.", despite it being "grossly obvious."
[George Orwell]

JohnW
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Re: Does anyone else find........

Postby JohnW » 23 Mar 2013, 9:38pm

Shootist wrote:...............
And Buddhism has been knocking around for 500 years or so longer than Christianity, and is currently classed as one of the fastest growing religions. I will draw your attention to the saying attributed to the Jesuits, "Give me a child for his first seven years and I will give you the man." The Catholic Church has had centuries to work out it's methods. And what a pretty piece of work it is. (That last is irony, for those unable to tell). I would also suggest that the word more associated with Catholicism than 'faith' is 'guilt', which is often much the same thing there.


.......'guilt' comes from breaking the best china, and telling your mother that the cat knocked it off the draining board.......

Shootist
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Re: Does anyone else find........

Postby Shootist » 23 Mar 2013, 10:10pm

JohnW wrote:
.......'guilt' comes from breaking the best china, and telling your mother that the cat knocked it off the draining board.......


Then, never having broken the best china, and therefore never having blamed the cat, I am guilt free, and bound to go to heaven, even if I don't believe in it. Seems vaguely unfair, that does. Still, it seems the best way to avoid guilt is to get rid of the cat. Cats have always had a rough time of it with the church. Now I understand why.
Pacifists cannot accept the statement "Those who 'abjure' violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf.", despite it being "grossly obvious."
[George Orwell]

reohn2
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Re: Does anyone else find........

Postby reohn2 » 23 Mar 2013, 10:46pm

Shootist wrote:..........And Buddhism has been knocking around for 500 years or so longer than Christianity, and is currently classed as one of the fastest growing religions.......

Except that Buddhism isn't a religion,it's simply a coping method,Siddartha Guatama never claimed his method to have anything to do with a Supreme Being or God.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

JohnW
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Re: Does anyone else find........

Postby JohnW » 23 Mar 2013, 10:47pm

Shootist wrote:
JohnW wrote:
.......'guilt' comes from breaking the best china, and telling your mother that the cat knocked it off the draining board.......


Then, never having broken the best china, and therefore never having blamed the cat, I am guilt free, and bound to go to heaven, even if I don't believe in it. Seems vaguely unfair, that does. Still, it seems the best way to avoid guilt is to get rid of the cat. Cats have always had a rough time of it with the church. Now I understand why.


Oh shootist - beware of John Wayne's advice - quoted by yourself.

reohn2
Posts: 37043
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Does anyone else find........

Postby reohn2 » 23 Mar 2013, 10:49pm

JohnW wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
meic wrote:The Catholic Church, rather like China, is absolutely massive.......

And easily broken :wink:


Whilst I don't think you meant to r2, you may have opened a can of worms here because down the two millennia since it's inception, empires have come and gone but the catholic church is still with us...........even the Chinese Empire, such as it currently is, will eventually go the same way as all the others.

Forgive my flippency but time was never a currency for correctness.
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I cycle therefore I am.

Shootist
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Re: Does anyone else find........

Postby Shootist » 23 Mar 2013, 11:13pm

JohnW wrote:Oh shootist - beware of John Wayne's advice - quoted by yourself.


And why, precisely, do you think I offer that quote? You have referred to misunderstandings of communication. Perhaps I misunderstand what seems to be the typical patronising attitude of one who has 'faith' towards one who prefers knowledge. In fact, you are beating about the bush. do you fear displaying your faith?
Pacifists cannot accept the statement "Those who 'abjure' violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf.", despite it being "grossly obvious."
[George Orwell]

Shootist
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Location: Derby

Re: Does anyone else find........

Postby Shootist » 23 Mar 2013, 11:19pm

reohn2 wrote:
Shootist wrote:..........And Buddhism has been knocking around for 500 years or so longer than Christianity, and is currently classed as one of the fastest growing religions.......

Except that Buddhism isn't a religion,it's simply a coping method,Siddartha Guatama never claimed his method to have anything to do with a Supreme Being or God.


There are quite a few Buddhists that would disagree with you. One of the benefits of being a Buddhist is the freedom to search for truth. There is a common belief within Buddhism that the search for enlightenment continues through many lives until eventual perfection and joining with God as one. Many people would describe that as a religion. Sid's principles were merely one possible starting point.
Pacifists cannot accept the statement "Those who 'abjure' violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf.", despite it being "grossly obvious."
[George Orwell]

JohnW
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Re: Does anyone else find........

Postby JohnW » 23 Mar 2013, 11:40pm

Shootist wrote:
JohnW wrote:Oh shootist - beware of John Wayne's advice - quoted by yourself.


And why, precisely, do you think I offer that quote?


...........because you think that everyone else is stupid, including particularly myself presumably, and you think that we ought to know...........

Shootist
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Re: Does anyone else find........

Postby Shootist » 24 Mar 2013, 12:10am

JohnW wrote:
Shootist wrote:
JohnW wrote:Oh shootist - beware of John Wayne's advice - quoted by yourself.


And why, precisely, do you think I offer that quote?


...........because you think that everyone else is stupid, including particularly myself presumably, and you think that we ought to know...........


Well, you are wrong. I offer a cap of unspecified size, in no way attributing it to persons specific or in general and you claim it for your own. Feel free to put it on, if it fits.

Let me help you study the language. (Proverbs 9:9).

The First part: "Life's tough."

Now, that is a generalisation, but I like to think, not a wholly inaccurate one. Many people would agree with me. The majority of the world's population, I think. But you will notice no general assumption about the character of anyone vis a vis stupidity. OK?

The Second part: "It's tougher if you're stupid."

I thought I'd highlight the relevant word. It is a conditional word that is intended to remark upon the negative aspects of stupidity in as much as it can make life yet more difficult than it needs to be. It seems clear to me that what it does not say is "Everyone is stupid." See the difference? I, or even The Duke, could have just said that everyone is stupid, if that's what we meant. Neither of us did say that.

Stop feeling so bad about yourself.
Pacifists cannot accept the statement "Those who 'abjure' violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf.", despite it being "grossly obvious."
[George Orwell]

JohnW
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Joined: 6 Jan 2007, 9:12pm
Location: Yorkshire

Re: Does anyone else find........

Postby JohnW » 24 Mar 2013, 1:54am

Shootist wrote:........It's tougher if you're stupid..............Stop feeling so bad about yourself.


Well, my dear chap, I'm afrraid you have the advantage of me there...............