Does this butter anyone up?

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661-Pete
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Re: Does this butter anyone up?

Postby 661-Pete » 9 Apr 2013, 1:04pm

Geriatrix wrote:*hydrogenated fat and trans-fats are the same thing.

That is not quite true (*dim recollections of school Chemistry A-level*) .... fully hydrogenated fat contains, by definition, no unsaturated i.e. double, carbon bonds, and therefore cannot have 'cis-' and 'trans-' allotropes. I believe it is true that partial hydrogenation of an unsaturated vegetable oil can lead to the formation of trans fats in an intermediate stage - but I'm not an expert on this.
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Geriatrix
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Re: Does this butter anyone up?

Postby Geriatrix » 9 Apr 2013, 3:17pm

661-Pete wrote:
Geriatrix wrote:*hydrogenated fat and trans-fats are the same thing.

That is not quite true (*dim recollections of school Chemistry A-level*) .... fully hydrogenated fat contains, by definition, no unsaturated i.e. double, carbon bonds, and therefore cannot have 'cis-' and 'trans-' allotropes. I believe it is true that partial hydrogenation of an unsaturated vegetable oil can lead to the formation of trans fats in an intermediate stage - but I'm not an expert on this.

The Wikipedia reference lost me on this but it seems to confirm what you say in one paragraph and then contradicts a few paragraph's further on, but that's probably due to my very lapsed knowledge of chemical covalency.

Many of the articles I have read have used the trans and hydrogenated fats to mean the same thing, or at least present the same risk.

In the UK the risk is no longer from off the shelf products like margarine. The big food manufacturers have either eliminated trans fats from their products, or at least labelled the risk. The problem comes from take away joints which don't need to specify the contents of their products. Many use hydrogenated oil because its cheap, easy to store, can be re-used many times and has a long shelf life because doesn't turn rancid. That it kills their customers is not their problem.
For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled - Richard Feynman

JohnW
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Re: Does this butter anyone up?

Postby JohnW » 9 Apr 2013, 4:09pm

This thread is more interesting to me than I thought it was going to be - although so much of what people are saying is more informed and more knowledgable than I can understand.

As kwackers has said, the "Turkey" thing doesn't hang together with me either, but maybe it was tried in America for profit reasons.

kwackers wrote:The turkey thing is a myth but like all good myths you can't keep it down...

I generally use marge rather than butter mainly because as I've got older I find myself less and less tolerant to dairy products such that with the exception of tea (and occasional ice cream) I've substituted most of them for alternatives.


The effect of the years going by for kwackers has been exactly the opposite of my experience. At a guess, given Kwackers' higher tolerance level for technology (as referred to on other threads), I'd say that more years have passed for me than for him. However, apparently it is normal for fat intolerence to reduce as we get older. Interesting.

Does anyone remember mucky-fat sandwiches?

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gaz
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Re: Does this butter anyone up?

Postby gaz » 9 Apr 2013, 4:46pm

JohnW wrote:Does anyone remember mucky-fat sandwiches?


Are those the ones on the top shelf of the supermarket refrigerator? :wink:
There'll be tarmac over, the white cliffs of Dover ...

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Re: Does this butter anyone up?

Postby kwackers » 9 Apr 2013, 4:52pm

gaz wrote:
JohnW wrote:Does anyone remember mucky-fat sandwiches?


Are those the ones on the top shelf of the supermarket refrigerator? :wink:

With breast meat?

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Re: Does this butter anyone up?

Postby JohnW » 9 Apr 2013, 5:03pm

gaz wrote:
JohnW wrote:Does anyone remember mucky-fat sandwiches?


Are those the ones on the top shelf of the supermarket refrigerator? :wink:


:lol: :lol: :lol:

.......but I suppose it depends on your supermarket.

The term may have been a particularly northern expression for all I know, but when the joint had cooled down, and been eaten, there was the residue of beef dripping and gravy jelly in the bottom of the cooking tray. This was mixed together and spread on (usually white) bread, with a sprinkle of salt - and it now turns out to have been diabolically bad for us. But oh it was delicious, and we survived.

In the late fourties it was my grandad's Monday lunch, every week, on two enormous homemade breadcakes - packed to take to work in the local quarry. He was tougher than old boots and lived to be 65 and four weeks. They had hard lives. When I stayed at my grandparents, it was felt (by me) as an honour to have the same thing for my Monday lunch - although it was always called dinner.

If the joint had been pork, the dripping was mixed with Bovril - it wasn't called mucky fat then, it was "drip n' Bovril" (stating the obvious!). We didn't seem to get much lamb (or mutton) in those days - but we did when we stayed at relatives on their farm at Ingleton and there it was for tea-time; I seem to remember it seemed fattier and greasier. I don't remember liking it.

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Mr. Viking
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Re: Does this butter anyone up?

Postby Mr. Viking » 10 Apr 2013, 11:13am

Geriatrix wrote: As a rule of thumb, the more solid a fat is at room temperature the more unhealthy (lard is deadly), so there is different health risks associated with different animal fats. Butter is soft at room temperature so the health risk it presents is more due to the quantity that you eat rather than the product itself. Duck & goose fat is also soft and falls into the same category.

I always used the same rule of thumb, then I watched a TV program suggesting lard was better for cooking than other fats. For one thing, it can be heated more than other fats before smoking, and the hotter the fat, the less gets absorbed into food. I can't remember the name of the program, but I googled lard and apparently has less saturated fat than butter. I thought that the fact it solidified when colder would explain why saturated fats build up in blood vessels. I am not a doctor though, so can't really be sure. I stay away from margarine because it looks funny. Butter is a nuisance in the cold weather though

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Re: Does this butter anyone up?

Postby Geriatrix » 10 Apr 2013, 1:34pm

Mr. Viking wrote:lard was better for cooking than other fats.
Lard is probably better for cooking than other fats, particularly for certain types of pastry but that doesn't mean it is more healthy. Lard is made from the visceral fat of pigs. Visceral fat is not only the the most unhealthy dietary fat, but its also the most unhealthy type of body fat to have as well.
For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled - Richard Feynman

Tonyf33
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Re: Does this butter anyone up?

Postby Tonyf33 » 11 Apr 2013, 1:41am

Some ACTUAL FACTS based on 26 years working with food in real world situations not made up stuff by someone who picked an internet chainmail from a fair few years back and NOT some random person who even if existed would have been a no jack-all trainee who likely has never studied food in any great detail other than his one year on the job training. Having studied food science and nutrition as part of my quals and ongoing career I can tell you it's pretty much bulldust :roll:

Margerine was named after Margaric Acid (margaris meaning palm oil in Greek according to Wiki),which was discovered 200 years ago, margerine was so named when that chap made a butter replacement for Nepoleon and his armies in 1869 give or take so is more around 140 years old...nowt to do with turkey's!

Margerine attracts flies
Margerine gives off a different smell when it goes off (the fat goes rancid, it just takes longer than butter)
Margerines taste differently depending on the plant type used
Margerine can & does grow mould spores if left unrefridgerated

Margerines on the shelf have far LESS calories than butter, only margerines with very high fat levels come close to butter. Stork for instance is pretty high as on the shelf 'marg' (now referred to as spreads') with 59% and has 530kcal per 100g, Flora original is 49% and is quoted by them as only 400/100g. Butter is 80% fat as a minimum legal requirement and around 700-750kcals/100g

Flora & Stork (both Unilever) do contain transfats but are negligible nowadays (Stork is about 0.5-1% TF I beleive) and is no longer from the industrial Hydrogenation process, though butter does have TF this naturally occurs and ISN'T harmful compared to processed TFA's. However butter has about 4-5 TIMES more saturated fat.
You're more likely to consume many times more TFA's from a processed pie containing industrial fat/shortening in the pastry than from spread alone.

IF you consume about a full 1/2 teaspoon additional transfat every single day (so you'd need to be eating between 10-20 teaspoons of Stork every day roughly) according to one scare mongering report you'll be at an increased risk of having heart disease. The fact that you'd be consuming huge amounts of fat full stop to get that extra transfat would be a sure sign your diet was pretty damn awful and on the right lines for a heart attack anyway with the amount of fat consumed.

And lastly, margerine is One molecule away from plastic, well in absolute terms maybe, however the molecules are arranged hugely different. The molecule arrangement of margerine/spread is much closer to butter than plastic.
Some people just pick random garbage/hocum off the net and try to make out they are facts and fool other people into believing lies.

Check out a Canadian report as well http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/fn-an/nutrition/ ... eng.php#36

These were listed on a guardian article from 2009 so may have changed slightly
1. TESCO OLIVE SPREAD - 540 cal. Fat: 59g (saturates 14.5g; monounsaturates 31.5g; polyunsaturates 10g, trans 0.5g). Salt 1.3g.
2. STORK - 531 cal. Fat: 59g (saturates 14.8g; monounsaturates 29.7g, polyunsaturates 14g, trans 0.5g). Salt: 1.8g.
3. Flora Buttery 634 cal. Fat: 70g (saturates 15.6g, monounsaturates 19.9g, polyunsaturates 34g, trans 0.5g). Salt: 1.6g.
4. Lurpak lighter 544 cal. Fat: 60g (saturates 26.6g, monounsaturates 21.3g, polyunsaturates 6.5g, trans 1.5g). Salt: 0.8g.
5. Lurpak butter 740 cal. Fat: 81g (saturates 52g, monounsaturates 21g, polyunsaturates 28g, trans 7g). Salt: 1.2g.

I LOVE BUTTER BTW :D

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661-Pete
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Re: Does this butter anyone up?

Postby 661-Pete » 11 Apr 2013, 8:43am

"margarine is one molecule away from plastic"

Indeed!? Most plastics (polyethylene for example) consist of just one type of molecule. So take away that molecule and substitute - something else, and you end up with anything. Rice pudding or chicken vindaloo, for example. Or horsemanure. The statement is utter tripe.

I'm glad that Tesco's Olive spread scores well on the trans- count, since that's the one we most often buy. :roll:

A comment re spelling and pronunciation. The correct spelling is, I believe, 'margarine', though the version with the 'e' has wide currency. However the 'g' is always pronounced soft, and Fowler's Modern English Usage has something to say about this. It is apparently one of the very few examples of an English word with a soft 'g' followed by a 'hard' vowel 'a' 'o' or 'u'. The only other examples given are 'gaol' and 'mortgagor'. That perhaps explains why the 'e' version occurs.
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JohnW
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Re: Does this butter anyone up?

Postby JohnW » 11 Apr 2013, 1:25pm

Tonyf33 wrote:..............not made up stuff by someone who picked an internet chainmail from a fair few years back and NOT some random person who even if existed would have been a no jack-all trainee who likely has never studied food in any great detail other than his one year on the job training........................................................ Flora original is 49% and is quoted by them as only 400/100g.................Some people just pick random garbage/hocum off the net and try to make out they are facts and fool other people into believing lies.............


Well if that's aimed at me, then.......sorry I spoke! I asked what people thought and whether anyone knew the facts. Clearly you do.

My thoughts on American multinationals getting involvred in what we eat goes way beyong margerine.

Flora "original" insn't Flora Original. Originally Flora was Sunflower oil based, and now it's unspecified vegetable (seed) oils with a drop of sunflower lecithin - look at the ingredients.

You've not clarified the whale blubber reference - fact or myth?
Last edited by JohnW on 11 Apr 2013, 3:17pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Mick F
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Re: Does this butter anyone up?

Postby Mick F » 11 Apr 2013, 1:41pm

Geriatrix wrote:Lard is made from the visceral fat of pigs.
Nope.
Lard is pig fat. It ain't "made", it's just fat and drips off cooked pork. Fry your eggs and bacon in it - Yum! :D
Mick F. Cornwall

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Re: Does this butter anyone up?

Postby JohnW » 11 Apr 2013, 2:13pm

Mick F wrote:
Geriatrix wrote:Lard is made from the visceral fat of pigs.
Nope.
Lard is pig fat. It ain't "made", it's just fat and drips off cooked pork. Fry your eggs and bacon in it - Yum! :D


Do you do that Mick? - if I fry in pork dripping, or the fat from the bacon, the gastric aftermath lasts me for hours!!!!!!

Note - edited for spelling!!!!
Last edited by JohnW on 11 Apr 2013, 3:18pm, edited 1 time in total.

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661-Pete
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Re: Does this butter anyone up?

Postby 661-Pete » 11 Apr 2013, 3:05pm

JohnW wrote:Do you do that Mick? - if I fry in pork dripping, or the fat from the bacon, the gastric aftermath last me for hours!!!!!!

What you need is....
Image
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

JohnW
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Re: Does this butter anyone up?

Postby JohnW » 11 Apr 2013, 3:19pm

661-Pete wrote:
JohnW wrote:Do you do that Mick? - if I fry in pork dripping, or the fat from the bacon, the gastric aftermath last me for hours!!!!!!

What you need is....
Image


What's that?............or, to put it another way, what are they?