I don't know which "the above" you have in mind but to extend your analogy it's hard to justify taxing all drinkers including those who drink water to ensure the availability of champagne. Once upon a time, the BBC was a monopoly supplier if only for technical reasons and it no longer is. Again, for technical reasons, the licence fee was once the only feasible model, especially when the telly was a real luxury for the better off.
The real point here is nobody knows who's watching the BBC at the moment and I suspect that if it was possible to introduce immediately a secure (ie unavoidable) commercial subscription model then the takings wouldn't fund the existing BBC. That would mean pension liabilities being taken over by the "lifeboat" ie the taxpayer, a lot of high-brow culture output being dumped and a lot of live performers being on the dole.
TV licensing...
Re: TV licensing...
Had R4 on when I got up at 05:30 and it went off at about 08:15.
Then blissful silence except for the clocks ticking and later Mrs Mick F ensconced herself in the kitchen preparing lemon and lime marmalade, and had R2 on for a couple of hours.
I was sweeping both the chimneys ................. and cleaning up afterwards!
Lunch without the radio ........................ and still no radio.
R4 may go on again at 5ish for the PM programme, and then the news at 6. Comedy perhaps at 18:30, then off at 19:00.
I tend to go to bed early and Mrs Mick F late. She'll be on Netflix until maybe midnight.
Then blissful silence except for the clocks ticking and later Mrs Mick F ensconced herself in the kitchen preparing lemon and lime marmalade, and had R2 on for a couple of hours.
I was sweeping both the chimneys ................. and cleaning up afterwards!
Lunch without the radio ........................ and still no radio.
R4 may go on again at 5ish for the PM programme, and then the news at 6. Comedy perhaps at 18:30, then off at 19:00.
I tend to go to bed early and Mrs Mick F late. She'll be on Netflix until maybe midnight.
Mick F. Cornwall
Re: TV licensing...
TC, you make a good argument to make BBC paid for via income tax.thirdcrank wrote:I don't know which "the above" you have in mind but to extend your analogy it's hard to justify taxing all drinkers including those who drink water to ensure the availability of champagne. Once upon a time, the BBC was a monopoly supplier if only for technical reasons and it no longer is. Again, for technical reasons, the licence fee was once the only feasible model, especially when the telly was a real luxury for the better off.
The real point here is nobody knows who's watching the BBC at the moment and I suspect that if it was possible to introduce immediately a secure (ie unavoidable) commercial subscription model then the takings wouldn't fund the existing BBC. That would mean pension liabilities being taken over by the "lifeboat" ie the taxpayer, a lot of high-brow culture output being dumped and a lot of live performers being on the dole.
Mick F. Cornwall
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thirdcrank
- Posts: 36781
- Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm
Re: TV licensing...
We are where we are and we cannot undo history.
I think I've posted before on this thread or another similar that with the introduction of commercial telly, the BBC should have been funded by receiving part of the then vast income of ITV. As it was, the BBC's costs were ratcheted up by having to compete with ITV, especially over wage rates. I use the word "ratcheted" intentionally, because with a public body, they won't go down during the hard times which inevitably come. Commercial firms reorganise or go bust. I get the impression that the once sacrosanct licence income has not been an incentive to innovation in terms of organisation.
I think it has also suited successive governments to use the licence fee renewal negotiations as a way of deterring criticism.
Things have come to a head in the way nobody could have anticipated because at a time when the telly had the best captive audience it's had for years, making new stuff has been difficult, hence even more repeats than usual. Also, the equivalent of working from home using Zoom and the rest has tended to demonstrate how those endless lists of credits can be brutally pruned when needs must.
I think this is much more of a mess than many realise. I think it's why the outgoing DG has outgone.
I think I've posted before on this thread or another similar that with the introduction of commercial telly, the BBC should have been funded by receiving part of the then vast income of ITV. As it was, the BBC's costs were ratcheted up by having to compete with ITV, especially over wage rates. I use the word "ratcheted" intentionally, because with a public body, they won't go down during the hard times which inevitably come. Commercial firms reorganise or go bust. I get the impression that the once sacrosanct licence income has not been an incentive to innovation in terms of organisation.
I think it has also suited successive governments to use the licence fee renewal negotiations as a way of deterring criticism.
Things have come to a head in the way nobody could have anticipated because at a time when the telly had the best captive audience it's had for years, making new stuff has been difficult, hence even more repeats than usual. Also, the equivalent of working from home using Zoom and the rest has tended to demonstrate how those endless lists of credits can be brutally pruned when needs must.
I think this is much more of a mess than many realise. I think it's why the outgoing DG has outgone.
Re: TV licensing...
Wise words there TC.thirdcrank wrote:I think this is much more of a mess than many realise. I think it's why the outgoing DG has outgone.
I'm happy that we jumped off the sinking ship some years ago.
If we all jumped off, what then?
Often quote you regarding what your father once said to you about chucking stones into the canal ...............
What would happen if everyone did that?
Mick F. Cornwall
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Marcus Aurelius
- Posts: 1903
- Joined: 1 Feb 2018, 10:20am
Re: TV licensing...
Oldjohnw wrote:How is BBC radio funded?
Licence fee.
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thirdcrank
- Posts: 36781
- Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm
Re: TV licensing...
My big gripe with BBC radio - no matter how it's funded - is the way it was mixed in with the telly.
I used to be a regular listener to the news on Radio 4 and before that the Home Service. Reporters reported the news in quite a factual way.
The telly is only interested in images so spectacular images = important news, images have to be found from somewhere if there are none and gormless graphics abound. Reporters have to be filmed in front of offices where everyone has gone home just to give the right images.
Radio news now shares a lot of reports made for the telly. I cannot remember the last time I bothered with the radio 4 News. Probably sitting in the car waiting to give a grandchild a lift and with nothing else to occupy the time.
I used to be a regular listener to the news on Radio 4 and before that the Home Service. Reporters reported the news in quite a factual way.
The telly is only interested in images so spectacular images = important news, images have to be found from somewhere if there are none and gormless graphics abound. Reporters have to be filmed in front of offices where everyone has gone home just to give the right images.
Radio news now shares a lot of reports made for the telly. I cannot remember the last time I bothered with the radio 4 News. Probably sitting in the car waiting to give a grandchild a lift and with nothing else to occupy the time.
Re: TV licensing...
So are people who listen to BBC radio but won't pay the licence fee freeloading?
John
Re: TV licensing...
Just read up on the TV license as haven’t done so in many years and was surprised to see what is covered now:-
You need to be covered by a TV license to:
Watch or record programmes as they’re being shown on TV, ON ANY CHANNEL.
Watch or stream programmes live on an online TV service (such as ITV hub, All 4, YouTube, Amazon Prime Video, Now RV, Sky Go, etc.)
Download or watch any BBC programmes on iPlayer.
You need to be covered by a TV license to:
Watch or record programmes as they’re being shown on TV, ON ANY CHANNEL.
Watch or stream programmes live on an online TV service (such as ITV hub, All 4, YouTube, Amazon Prime Video, Now RV, Sky Go, etc.)
Download or watch any BBC programmes on iPlayer.
Re: TV licensing...
That over-reach is because of people like me...
The License fee isn't, and wasn't, value for money - and I was more than happy to watch Dr Who a day late and not be subject to it.
They have now made the license fee a regressive tax, since there are relatively few households who do not have the ability to watch *something* that is covered... Indeed the "real living wage" takes into account the costs of owning a 32" TV as a means by which many people interact with society.
That's based on the "Minimum Income Standard" which is a focus group derived baseline of things that should be available to all. So a TV is on the list, but not what would be considered a large TV by most (I haven't moved beyond 32", but then my TV is starting to fail and when it does it will be replaced with a larger one (partly because with the trend for zero bezels, it won't be physically any larger and partly because I need more space for the subtitles).
If it were pulled from income tax then I'd be quite happy, despite the fact that it would cost me personally significantly more than I currently pay.
The License fee isn't, and wasn't, value for money - and I was more than happy to watch Dr Who a day late and not be subject to it.
They have now made the license fee a regressive tax, since there are relatively few households who do not have the ability to watch *something* that is covered... Indeed the "real living wage" takes into account the costs of owning a 32" TV as a means by which many people interact with society.
That's based on the "Minimum Income Standard" which is a focus group derived baseline of things that should be available to all. So a TV is on the list, but not what would be considered a large TV by most (I haven't moved beyond 32", but then my TV is starting to fail and when it does it will be replaced with a larger one (partly because with the trend for zero bezels, it won't be physically any larger and partly because I need more space for the subtitles).
If it were pulled from income tax then I'd be quite happy, despite the fact that it would cost me personally significantly more than I currently pay.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Re: TV licensing...
as I think I said previously atleast it isnt like in Germany where every one pays the equivalent of a tv licence, even short term visitors working there & people who dont watch tv, & the overseers are very aggressive about getting their pay off, even having the power to take money from your bank account ( I read )
It is strange that here a family with 2 adults and maybe one grown up kid living at home and working pay the same as a single person on their own?
It is strange that here a family with 2 adults and maybe one grown up kid living at home and working pay the same as a single person on their own?
Re: TV licensing...
Answers from me.
Having the device, isn't the issue. You can have one, but not turn it on and let it gather dust if you want.
It's watching it that counts.
Telly with the vision switched off is still "watching" as it's still live television as it's still on.
Watching catch-up BBC is the same ........................ but watching catch-up non-BBC is allowed.
The BBC is funded by the TVL fee.
It's levied on the households who watch telly.
Radio, albeit BBC radio is free all over the world.
Listen in your car, or your boat, or on the top of Snowdon, or even on the top of Kilimanjaro ........... it's free.
The "tax" is very very regressive.
One old lady or gent in a little tiny flat in Cowdenbeath pays the same as a family of six in a seven bedroom mansion in London Mayfair.
Oldjohnw wrote:So are people who listen to BBC radio but won't pay the licence fee freeloading?
The TVL is only levied on a household who have a telly and they watch it.mercalia wrote:It is strange that here a family with 2 adults and maybe one grown up kid living at home and working pay the same as a single person on their own?
Having the device, isn't the issue. You can have one, but not turn it on and let it gather dust if you want.
It's watching it that counts.
Telly with the vision switched off is still "watching" as it's still live television as it's still on.
Watching catch-up BBC is the same ........................ but watching catch-up non-BBC is allowed.
The BBC is funded by the TVL fee.
It's levied on the households who watch telly.
Radio, albeit BBC radio is free all over the world.
Listen in your car, or your boat, or on the top of Snowdon, or even on the top of Kilimanjaro ........... it's free.
The "tax" is very very regressive.
One old lady or gent in a little tiny flat in Cowdenbeath pays the same as a family of six in a seven bedroom mansion in London Mayfair.
Mick F. Cornwall
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thirdcrank
- Posts: 36781
- Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm
Re: TV licensing...
Mick F wrote:... Having the device, isn't the issue. You can have one, but not turn it on and let it gather dust if you want. ...
Unless something has changed, a licence is needed to have it installed. Probably a minor difference, these days, but in the days before daytime telly, plenty of people were prosecuted for having one installed the technical expression for its being plugged in.
Re: TV licensing...
thirdcrank wrote:Mick F wrote:... Having the device, isn't the issue. You can have one, but not turn it on and let it gather dust if you want. ...
Unless something has changed, a licence is needed to have it installed. Probably a minor difference, these days, but in the days before daytime telly, plenty of people were prosecuted for having one installed the technical expression for its being plugged in.
It is using the TV for certain things. Even the BBC doesn't claim it is an ownership tax.
The law says that you must have a TV licence if you:
watch or record live TV programmes on any channel, even if it's not on the BBC
watch or stream programmes live on an online TV service such as ITV Hub, All 4, YouTube, Amazon Prime Video, Now TV and Sky Go
download or watch any BBC programmes on iPlayer
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-51376255