Jamie - Twizzlers v.s Nutkin

[Bonefishblues]

Paint them hi viz yellow, no one will see them

...and an ickle squirrel-sized helmet too, perhaps?

The things would be goners very soon, I'm sure.

[beardy]

Kill 3 million to save 200,000 that sounds like a typical humane reason for more humane killing.

What other introduced species are there that we can started on?
We could take out those nettles introduced by the Romans (it may make a few species of butterfly disappear).
Then we have to do some more reintroducing like we did with the Red Kites.

Or we could accept that nature is ever changing and leave it to get on with its business. Preferably without any further introductions.

[Ben@Forest]

Kill 3 million to save 200,000 that sounds like a typical humane reason for more humane killing.

What other introduced species are there that we can started on?
We could take out those nettles introduced by the Romans (it may make a few species of butterfly disappear).
Then we have to do some more reintroducing like we did with the Red Kites.

Or we could accept that nature is ever changing and leave it to get on with its business. Preferably without any further introductions.

I'm not suggesting we should kill all grey squirrels. Earlier up the chain I said it was only worth controlling greys where an existing population of reds could then recolonise their former habitat. It is becoming more problematic because mainland Europe is now suffering from the spread of grey squirrels so a population of reds elsewhere is not guaranteed, there is a real chance reds could, in time, become as dead as the dodo. Furthermore the greys carry a virus which they are not as badly affected by as red squirrels are, therefore there is a better chance of survival of reds if there are no greys in the vicinity. By the way (if you haven't already guessed) I do this for a living...

[661-Pete]

In reality, greys are pests.
Same as badgers, rabbits, rats, deer, and pigeons.

When we refer to grey squirrels as pests we're probably letting our xenophobia run away with us. Simple fact is, many of these animals are introduced species, it's just that the greys are one of the more recent immigrants. When I was a child, there were still people alive who remembered a Britain without the Grey Squirrel.

Badgers may be a problem for some people, but I don't go along with the TB stuff. It is a native species. Rabbits, certainly a pest in some places (as well as being a hazard to cyclists), were probably introduced to Britain by the Romans. The brown rat we all know about, it first came to Britain in the 18th century. Red deer and roe deer are native, the fallow deer was introduced, again probably by the Romans (they probably liked a bit of venison with their rabbit stew). As for pigeons - the main nuisance, the feral town pigeons, are descended from the rock dove, another native species, although the domesticated pigeon has been around for centuries.

So you see that the grey squirrel gets most of the blame, partly because it came last (along with the coypu, the mink, the collared dove and the ring-neck parakeet), and partly because it drove out a much-loved native species.

Justification for persecution?

[beardy]

Kill 3 million to save 200,000 that sounds like a typical humane reason for more humane killing.

What other introduced species are there that we can started on?
We could take out those nettles introduced by the Romans (it may make a few species of butterfly disappear).
Then we have to do some more reintroducing like we did with the Red Kites.

Or we could accept that nature is ever changing and leave it to get on with its business. Preferably without any further introductions.

I'm not suggesting we should kill all grey squirrels. Earlier up the chain I said it was only worth controlling greys where an existing population of reds could then recolonise their former habitat. It is becoming more problematic because mainland Europe is now suffering from the spread of grey squirrels so a population of reds elsewhere is not guaranteed, there is a real chance reds could, in time, become as dead as the dodo. Furthermore the greys carry a virus which they are not as badly affected by as red squirrels are, therefore there is a better chance of survival of reds if there are no greys in the vicinity. By the way (if you haven't already guessed) I do this for a living...

Yes, I picked up the fact that you were in the business some time ago.
I have had many arguments with land managers about whether they should interfere or not.
Obviously as I believe that we shouldnt interfere then I am not in the business.

[al_yrpal]

Perhaps we would have 3 million reds here if there werent any greys. Humans killed off the top predators, and adversly affected all sorts of predators. Nature would control squirrels better if there were no humans interfering, we reap what we sow.

Al

[Mick F]

Well, I will bite. As far as these species are concerned we are pests too, and we have a far bigger adverse effect on our home, the earth!

Ok, I'll bite back then.

What would the planet be like if the meteorite hadn't hit Earth and brought about the extinction of the dinosaurs?

[al_yrpal]

Well, I will bite. As far as these species are concerned we are pests too, and we have a far bigger adverse effect on our home, the earth!

Ok, I'll bite back then.

What would the planet be like if the meteorite hadn't hit Earth and brought about the extinction of the dinosaurs?

You would probably be plagued by dinosaurs, a lot more of a problem than squirrels!

The point is humans, in Britain particularly, took out the top predators, bears, wolves etc, and so we,are left with a situation where some species have to be culled by us. The question is by how much? Having had a few mouthfus of squirrel in Louisiana I have no objection to culling them, it was quite tasty. Badger bonz Brian May might object though?

Al

[beardy]

There are still plenty of cats, dogs and foxes. Two of which would stand a better chance of catching a squirrel than a bear or a wolf.

Though from my observation our mutual enemy, the car, is doing its bit to keep squirrel numbers down.

[mrjemm]

There are still plenty of cats, dogs and foxes. Two of which would stand a better chance of catching a squirrel than a bear or a wolf.

Bet a bear would stand a good chance. If nothing else, it could shake the squoil (can't say my Rs very well...) out of the tree.

Though from my observation our mutual enemy, the car, is doing its bit to keep squirrel numbers down.

Don't blame the weapon for the crime.

We've screwed everything natural up. Introduced species are everywhere, as 661-Pete says; go far back enough and we'd be covered by that too. Shame about that asteroid, the dinos coulda given us a run, or perhaps out of them, something else 'intelligent' would've evolved to a similar state and taken primary. Ah well, another'll be along soon; didn't I read there's one the size of Wales (of course... Perhaps this dimension should be known as "1W", considering how everything is compared to the size of there.) heading our way within the next 150 years?

[Mick F]

Badgers may be a problem for some people, but I don't go along with the TB stuff.

I don't buy the TB stuff either, but Badgers are a pest because they dig ruddy great holes! I like badgers and they do us no harm, but they do ruin the edges of fields.

So do rabbits ...........
They dig away the banks at the perimeters of fields and properties. Rabbits have ruined the bank at the end of our garden.

The local farmer gasses the rabbits in his fields with his tractor exhaust. He drives up into the field, stops up all the warren holes (except one) with rocks and turf, then removes the silencer off his tractor and replaces it with a long hose which he shoves into the remaining hole. He leaves the tractor running for half an hour or more.

[661-Pete]

The local farmer gasses the rabbits in his fields with his tractor exhaust. He drives up into the field, stops up all the warren holes (except one) with rocks and turf, then removes the silencer off his tractor and replaces it with a long hose which he shoves into the remaining hole. He leaves the tractor running for half an hour or more.

Someone's been reading Watership Down...

[Ben@Forest]

The local farmer gasses the rabbits in his fields with his tractor exhaust. He drives up into the field, stops up all the warren holes (except one) with rocks and turf, then removes the silencer off his tractor and replaces it with a long hose which he shoves into the remaining hole. He leaves the tractor running for half an hour or more.

Mick, I hate to say it but your farmer is probably breaking the law - as per the wildlife legislation I mentioned earlier - it is an offence to mutilate, kick, beat, nail or otherwise impale, stab, burn, stone, crush, drown, drag or asphyxiate any wild mammal with intent to inflict unnecessary suffering - the gassing of rabbits is legal but only using a variety of poisons which are applied as pellets or powders (though I think CO can be one of them). CO from a vehicle exhaust is not effective and the fumes can be hot - so both these cause unnecessary suffering.

Whether legal or not he is almost definitely wasting his diesel - he'd be better off looking at the proper poisons.

[Mick F]

Mick, I hate to say it but your farmer is probably breaking the law ...........

No doubt, but you you tell him.

He's a farmer, and a Cornish one at that, and he's doing what he does because that's what he does, as did his father before him and no doubt his sons will continue.

[The Mechanic]

Thinking about this i believe that the reason there are over populations of some animals is that we do not hunt them anymore. In the past we lived on food we either grew or hunted. These days we buy it from either Lidl or Waitrose (other food retailers are available). If we all returned to hunting to live, as opposed to live to hunt, then we might not have this problem.