Emigration

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TonyR
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Re: Emigration

Postby TonyR » 11 May 2015, 10:07pm

iandriver wrote:Mainly my problem is I don't believe what you describe is the reality. I believe the lowest bidder approach is at the cost of jobs with respectable terms and conditions in favour of zero hours contracts etc. and a chance to erode the service. All along a few fat cats at the top get rich while being hidden far enough away from the public eye to be accountable for anything.


Ah, you're scared of the bogey men.

Vorpal
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Re: Emigration

Postby Vorpal » 11 May 2015, 10:21pm

TonyR wrote:
iandriver wrote:It's the back door privatisation that worries me, at layers where you can't see it. You might go to a hospital for a blood test. This might appear to be done in a non privatised environment. But what about the testing itself once the sample has gone off?


What does it matter who does it as long as it gets done efficiently and effectively? You don't expect the NHS to manufacture its own beds and surgical equipment. It buys them in. So why do they need to do their own blood tests if someone can do it more efficiently and cost effectively? It saves the NHS spending money on building a lab and kitting it out with equipment and people - a big investment that is difficult to make within its annual budgetting one year payback model. So let someone else spend all the money and go for a pay as you go model instead.

I don't, in priciple, object to privatising some services, if it make things more efficient. As you correctly point out, the NHS is not going to manufacture it's own equipment. Blood tests are an exellent example. The majority of blood tests are relatively simple. Someone goes to their surgery, or the local hospital, has a couple of vials of blood collected, and off they go for analysis. The private lab can do them efficiently and cost effectively.

But what about at A&E when the medical staff may need analysis more quickly than the private laboratory (or the private laboratory, plus transport time) can do them? Should the hospital with an A&E department still have the equipment and staff to do the analysis? If no, how do we solve the problem of requiring results more quickly? If yes, what if the equipment and staff are underutilised? Should they sell their services elsewhere? And should they do so at actual cost? Or at a cost that will allow them to be utilised at something reasonable like 80%, so they can still serve the A&E department that caused them to exist in the first place?

And what about a blood test that requires specialised equipment, and the private companies that bid on blood testing analysis neither have the equipment, not want to invest in it? Should we find another company to do just that test? What if there are very few companies that do that test? Should the NHS pay excessive amounts for the test due to the near monopoly situation? Buy the equipment and train the staff? Send the blood samples to the continent and risk other problems (such as poor handling)?

I'm not suggesting that these are necessarily a reason not to privatise, but these are questions that are not always adequately addressed. Consequently, privatisation of something apparently simple, like blood tests, can result in inefficiencies that make up for the savings.

Furthermore, in some cases, the issues should be addressed for the whole system. Not just for the Mid Whatever NHS Trust.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

Psamathe
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Re: Emigration

Postby Psamathe » 11 May 2015, 10:40pm

Vorpal wrote:...
I'm not suggesting that these are necessarily a reason not to privatise, but these are questions that are not always adequately addressed. Consequently, privatisation of something apparently simple, like blood tests, can result in inefficiencies that make up for the savings.
...

I have the impression that the process has been a rush driven by ideology and that a lot of questions are not being adequately addressed. e.g. take a specialty out of an NHS hospital and that hospital still have to pay for the floor space that the specialty had previously used, has to pay redundancy, has some maybe expensive gear that has not yet reached the end of it's life (a time that was crucial in making the case to purchase the equipment to start with), etc.

Ian

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al_yrpal
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Re: Emigration

Postby al_yrpal » 11 May 2015, 10:41pm

Bov.. I agree that the rail privatisation is a dogs breakfast, a total failure. Cecil Parkinson etc made a total hash of it and its still a badly functioning mess more than 20 years later.
Privatisation of various services in the NHS can possibly improve it and cut costs. As long as it is done carefully and any mistakes are swiftly undone I cant see any objection. Private hospitals are used as an additional resource locally, it seems to work ok. Some folk seem to have a idealogical objection to any part of the public services being privatised. I have worked in both sectors and I dont have any as long as it at least as good as the NHS service. If someone can make reasonable profits out of it good luck to them.

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. What do you do to make a difference?

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bovlomov
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Re: Emigration

Postby bovlomov » 11 May 2015, 10:52pm

al_yrpal wrote: If someone can make reasonable profits out of it good luck to them.

The devil, as usual, is in the detail. For the private sector to be tempted ther has to be reliable profit, but when does that become too much profit? When do the odds become unfairly stacked in favour of the private companies? The health service and railways are fiendishly complicated organisations; it's impossible to account for every angle when drafting the contracts. And who is drafting the contracts? Firms like PWC, who work for both sides but supposedly keep things separate behind chinese walls. It seems like a disaster waiting to happen.

reohn2
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Re: Emigration

Postby reohn2 » 12 May 2015, 9:30am

When private companies provide services to an organisation such as the NHS and over time provide more and more services,at some point it becomes bigger and supplies more services than the organisation itself.At some point that organisation becomes dependent on those services so much so that it can't operate without them.
At that point those companies own that service and dictate to it rather than the opposite.
Private companies exist for one reason alone,to make profit,that is their primary function.

If state owned services such as the NHS/public transport/utilities are run as efficiently as private companies,and there's no reason they can't,with any 'profits' ploughed back into those services,those services will serve the whole of the people(country)rather than any private company's shareholders.
That is a better system of operating those services for the whole rather than the few.
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iandriver
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Re: Emigration

Postby iandriver » 12 May 2015, 12:07pm

TonyR wrote:
iandriver wrote:Mainly my problem is I don't believe what you describe is the reality. I believe the lowest bidder approach is at the cost of jobs with respectable terms and conditions in favour of zero hours contracts etc. and a chance to erode the service. All along a few fat cats at the top get rich while being hidden far enough away from the public eye to be accountable for anything.


Ah, you're scared of the bogey men.


No, just reality http://www.itv.com/news/west/update/201 ... contracts/

http://www.ier.org.uk/blog/public-secto ... on-workers

Really doesn't take much of a google to discover how the jobs of many have been undermined by privatisation in the name of "progress".
Supporter of the A10 corridor cycling campaign serving Royston to Cambridge http://a10corridorcycle.com. Never knew gardening secateurs were an essential part of the on bike tool kit until I took up campaigning.....

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Sooper8
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Re: Emigration

Postby Sooper8 » 12 May 2015, 1:04pm

Edwards wrote:Now that we have this govt in power again I am considering leaving.

I would like to live in a country where the poor have a wage they can at least feed themselves on. The old will be able to afford to be looked after with dignity and respect when they need it.
The sick will have proper health care without private medical insurance.

I am getting to an age where I have to think about my future care and health. The only reasonable care system for somebody who is not rich now is prison.
So before I get I get ill where should I sail to?


Don't leave! Join in the fight to make this country better. It's not too long ago that we had all these things.
Don't forget that the coalition Govt didn't have a mandate to make all the cuts they did last time. It wasn't in their manifesto (s)
This time they only have 33% of voters who wanted them.
Therefore a large number of people are of the same mind set as you.
It won't happen overnight and it won't happen if we give in, but I hold out hope that something better can be constructed and changes are made to a morally bankrupt political system.
Although I must confess that my wife and I felt the same on the day of election results , so I'm no one to offer advice.
Everything you love,everything meaningful with depth & history,all passionate authentic experiences will be appropriated,mishandled,watered down,cheapened, repackaged,marketed & sold to the people you hate

Tangled Metal
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Re: Emigration

Postby Tangled Metal » 12 May 2015, 1:44pm

Didn't Labour also bring in NHS privatisation? Did you complain a lot when that happened? It seems to me that when there is a Labour government there is a quiet period among the unions, socialists and others with a similar axe to grind against the parties that are not sympathetic to the unions and socialist tendencies. Then as soon as a Tory government comes in there is a big outpouring of privatisation is bad, NHS is being destroyed and union activity. I tell you what I bet that since the winter of discontent and that period of union activity almost all the union activity such as strikes happen in a Tory government and it happens before the Tory government beds in and has an effect. I could be wrong but I seem to remember in 2010 there was a bit of transport union actions going on but in 2009 there was nothing. I know it could be due to Tory policies and cuts but I doubt that was the case so soon in their government as 2010. Do unions store up their pay claims for a Tory government for political gain against them??

Also, I am sure this happens with lefty bile about Tories on forums as soon as they get in too. Sorry if this is confrontational but it has been my observation and this election it seems more so. I do feel there is a little bit of sour grapes going on. Labour lost move on. BTW it seems that according to IPSOS MORI it was the "lazy Labour" voters that lostr it for Labour. Tory side got their vote out but the labour side were about 6% of their base or core vote did not actually vote. There is about a 10% drop in polling figures to election votes but since there was a 16%$ drop from polls to election they assumed it was the core vote of declared Labour voters who never got out. oh dear! am I being more confrontational to the lefties??

beardy
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Re: Emigration

Postby beardy » 12 May 2015, 1:47pm

Add to the privatisation introduced by Labour the fact that it was they who introduced the Bedroom Tax, the Tories merely extended it to those lucky enough to have social housing rather than privately rented.

Any self respecting Left winger will join you in condemnation of all the Tory (and militaristic) policies committed by New Labour.

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bovlomov
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Re: Emigration

Postby bovlomov » 12 May 2015, 2:28pm

Tangled Metal wrote: am I being more confrontational to the lefties??

I wish you wouldn't use that term. It is increasingly meaningless (or decreasingly meaningful).

Who are these 'lefties'? Reluctant Labour voters? Labour loyalists? People who don't vote Conservative or Ukip? People advocating state control of industry?

To answer what I understand to be your question: A lot of Labour voters complained about PFI and privatisation during Blair's time. Also, lot of Labour voting teachers complained about Labour education policies. A lot of Labour voters complained about Blair's wars.

You may well ask why they voted Labour. I don't know. It could be that they knew that the Tories weren't any different in those respects, and may be worse in others. Perhaps this time they really couldn't tell the difference, so didn't think it was worth voting Labour this time. In any case, I doubt many of them would describe themselves as being leftwing (or lefties).

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al_yrpal
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Re: Emigration

Postby al_yrpal » 12 May 2015, 2:35pm

pete75 wrote:Well it is a bit worrying now this lot are in power. For example I've a chronic health condition and will be coming up towards retirement before too long. The Conservatives are clever enough, cynical enough and lacking in humanity enough to realise that if NHS treatment is cut back for people like me we'll die saving the NHS money for further treatment and also many thousands in pension payments. From a Tory point of view what's not to like?


I went the Royal Berks this morning for a pre assessment for my shoulder op next week. I was seen on time and I was mightily impressed at the level of detail and care to avoid infection that I recieved. I knew the Triage Nurse from years ago. I asked her what had been privatised since my wife left a few years ago. She said nothing - its the NHS why are you asking? These myths and scare stories fool no-one. The election result would have been similar with PR, perhaps even more right wing....
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=96590&p=897169#p897169 Perhaps we need to accept the will of the majority, or as suggested leave

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. What do you do to make a difference?

TonyR
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Re: Emigration

Postby TonyR » 12 May 2015, 2:41pm

Tangled Metal wrote:Didn't Labour also bring in NHS privatisation?


And remember that the NHS was created against staunch opposition from the medical profession of the day, overcome by Bevan by, in his own words "stuffing their mouths with gold"

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bovlomov
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Re: Emigration

Postby bovlomov » 12 May 2015, 2:44pm

al_yrpal wrote: She said nothing - its the NHS why are you asking?

Her ignorance is worrying, don't you think?

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al_yrpal
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Re: Emigration

Postby al_yrpal » 12 May 2015, 2:47pm

bovlomov wrote:
al_yrpal wrote: She said nothing - its the NHS why are you asking?

Her ignorance is worrying, don't you think?


Hmmm.. I am more worried by the myths which all prove to be just… myths.

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. What do you do to make a difference?