When you run out of money…

Cycle-touring, Expeditions, Adventures, Major cycle routes NOT LeJoG (see other special board)
simonhill
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Re: When you run out of money…

Postby simonhill » 2 Dec 2019, 2:32pm

simonhill wrote:
I tend to agree that falling back on the kindness of strangers in anything other than exceptional or emergency situations is to be avoided.



Looks like I cocked up the quote thing:
This from vegan:

How do you regard things such as Couch Surfing in the equation? I have Couch Surfed all over the world and accepted many free meals and beds. When I travelled 12 years ago, I barely spent any money on food or accommodation. Some people regard this as taking advantage of people, but all my hosts singed up to the website and were happy to host me. I believe in Karma, and when in the UK I have hosted over 200 people at my house. I have collected people from airports, provided written invitations, helped people find jobs and even hosted one girl for nearly 6 months free of charge. If I take from something, I always try and put back into the community. That's why I don't feel any guilt accepting a free meal or accommodation when travelling.[/quote]

My reply:

I certainly wasn't thinking of couchsurfing or warmshowers. As you say, people have signed up for this and in theory it is reciprocal. Maybe if someone only takes and never gives, then it might apply.

Personally I have never cs'd or ws'd, partly because they didn't exist when I was an impecunious traveller. I can afford hotels now and enjoy having my own space at the end of the day - I'm not even sure how I'd get on sharing a room if I were to team up with somebody again.

I used to hitchhike a lot 40 odd years ago and I still give lifts, but it is very rare to see any hitchhikers nowadays. I was occasionally fed and had a bed offered a couple of times. One of the things I loved about hitching was you never knew what would happen. As with most things nowadays, cs and ws is much more organised and can be booked in advance.
Last edited by simonhill on 2 Dec 2019, 4:35pm, edited 1 time in total.

Vorpal
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Re: When you run out of money…

Postby Vorpal » 2 Dec 2019, 2:39pm

First of all, I do not think it is appropriate for people who have money, to travel on charity in places where folks are very much poorer than them. Or to be irresponsible with their money, so that they have to rely on charity from folks who can ill afford it.

That said, there seem to be some assumptions & privilege built into the idea that one must have money to travel. For one thing, not everyone starts out trips with money, for another, not everyone who does such things; not everyone on this forum (or their friends) are Westerners travelling in developing countries

I did such things in the USA. Some of my tours with my brother when we were teens, we did on pocket money. We foraged as we went, a few times, we worked small jobs. Sometimes strangers gave us stuff without being asked, out of the goodness of their hearts. We'd ask to camp on a field, and get invited to have an evening meal with the farmer, or a fellow traveller would share with us. I can only recall one time that we asked for charity from anyone. We went to Travelers Aid because we'd used the last of our money fixing a puncture. We still had to get across 1.5 Midwestern states to get home, and our foraging had failed. Travelers Aid gave us a coupon for food & we used it all on cheap bread & peanut butter.

There have been some times in my life when I had so little money, it hardly mattered where I was broke. At least out on my bike, I had new things to experience and enjoy.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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The utility cyclist
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Re: When you run out of money…

Postby The utility cyclist » 2 Dec 2019, 3:26pm

vegan dog wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:
As a Western traveller, a person who is making a LEISURE trip, one that you're not forced to make, I just find it repulsive that one can be putting upon others because of your recklessness in not planning for the unexpected/no fall back plan.


What do you have in mind when you say putting upon others? I am talking about finding jobs on route or offering your services in other ways.

So you've never heard of travellers from the 'west' who having run out of money or got themselves into a situation because of stupidity have had to rely on locals to help them out, giving them somewhere to stay and feed them :roll: that story has been retold many times over.
Dressing up and going onto the streets for money is basically street begging, it's not offering a service at all and preys upon people's goodwill, they've not asked to be 'entertained' you're forcing yourself onto others and asking them for money unsolicited.

Going to find an actual job that's cash in hand to pay your way around whilst on holiday is all well and good and in some places in the world that's fine, do that in the wrong place at the wrong time and that can unravel pretty damn quickly. Arranging to do work in a place beforehand is different but if you have no idea what the job really entails/zero experience so can get let go PDQ you still need to have a back up plan monetary wise and not rely on the work to get you around/feed and shelter you.

See the part story in the screen grab, this is not uncommon, going to do a job, having ZERO back up whatsoever financially and then putting upon people, in this case a lot!
Sure, people will do this because they are very kind and generous, but the person needn't have put themselves into that situation and that help could have gone to someone more deserving, someone who lives in poverty every single day, deliberately putting yourself into that situation with no back up plan makes my blood boil.
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pq
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Re: When you run out of money…

Postby pq » 2 Dec 2019, 3:37pm

In my experience, if you're charming, preferably attractive and in a touristy place, you can get work which pays enough to save a little, usually involving interacting with tourists in English.. Alas I'm neither charming nor attractive...
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Re: When you run out of money…

Postby The utility cyclist » 2 Dec 2019, 4:04pm

Vorpal wrote:First of all, I do not think it is appropriate for people who have money, to travel on charity in places where folks are very much poorer than them. Or to be irresponsible with their money, so that they have to rely on charity from folks who can ill afford it.

That said, there seem to be some assumptions & privilege built into the idea that one must have money to travel. For one thing, not everyone starts out trips with money, for another, not everyone who does such things; not everyone on this forum (or their friends) are Westerners travelling in developing countries

I did such things in the USA. Some of my tours with my brother when we were teens, we did on pocket money. We foraged as we went, a few times, we worked small jobs. Sometimes strangers gave us stuff without being asked, out of the goodness of their hearts. We'd ask to camp on a field, and get invited to have an evening meal with the farmer, or a fellow traveller would share with us. I can only recall one time that we asked for charity from anyone. We went to Travelers Aid because we'd used the last of our money fixing a puncture. We still had to get across 1.5 Midwestern states to get home, and our foraging had failed. Travelers Aid gave us a coupon for food & we used it all on cheap bread & peanut butter.

There have been some times in my life when I had so little money, it hardly mattered where I was broke. At least out on my bike, I had new things to experience and enjoy.


who/where in the thread has this been said? Also define having 'money', you could have £300 and that last an absolute age, particularly if you are cycle camping/freegan and/or you've already planned in advance where you can work and have some money to help out but not rely upon it. You could also have £2k and that leave you begging on the streets, it's all relative to individual scenarios/travel plans.

I see no assumptions by anyone on here at all as to needing a lot of money or anything with respect to privilege, just forummers saying travelling with no proper plan, travelling without sufficient monies for your trip (whatever money that is) and no back up plan for eventualities which we KNOW occur is irresponsible at best, reckless and potentially very dangerous.

it's about safety for yourself, and as mentioned travelling without fear or apprehension (wondering where you next meal/shelter is going to be) which can make such a trip hellish and importantly respect to others by not putting upon people and respect to the host countries.

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The utility cyclist
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Re: When you run out of money…

Postby The utility cyclist » 2 Dec 2019, 4:08pm

pq wrote:In my experience, if you're charming, preferably attractive and in a touristy place, you can get work which pays enough to save a little, usually involving interacting with tourists in English.. Alas I'm neither charming nor attractive...

Skimpy bars in Australia and the US can pay good money to the attractive who don't mind getting too friendly with the locals ... and there are places where male 'skimpy's' are desirable, unsure if a 6 pack is required.

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Re: When you run out of money…

Postby vegan dog » 2 Dec 2019, 5:09pm

simonhill wrote:I used to hitchhike a lot 40 odd years ago and I still give lifts, but it is very rare to see any hitchhikers nowadays. I was occasionally fed and had a bed offered a couple of times. One of the things I loved about hitching was you never knew what would happen. As with most things nowadays, cs and ws is much more organised and can be booked in advance.


I used to hitch hike a lot too and even hitch hiked from the UK to China. I don't hitch hike anymore as it's just too frustrating, especially in the UK. I tried to hitch about 5 years ago, thinking I would relive the "good old days, but I spent countless hours standing about. I think the British have become very rude, especially the young. A lot of young people would drive past giving the finger up sign. This sort sort of hostility is not something I have experienced in any other country. I have had people try and rob me in other countries and had to physically defend myself, but have never experienced such trivial rudeness for the sake of it.

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Re: When you run out of money…

Postby brynpoeth » 2 Dec 2019, 5:52pm

Used to hitch a lot too, must have waited a lot but got lots of free travel, met interesting people, they enjoyed meeting me
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nsew
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Re: When you run out of money…

Postby nsew » 2 Dec 2019, 9:10pm

The utility cyclist wrote:spending beyond your means early/running out of money is irresponsible IMO not to mention the potential to be extremely dangerous. Not just that but you are likely to put upon people's kindness when others may need it more.

As a Western traveller, a person who is making a LEISURE trip, one that you're not forced to make, I just find it repulsive that one can be putting upon others because of your recklessness in not planning for the unexpected/no fall back plan. sure, there can be times that something really out the ordinary crops up, but then taking steps to avoid those scenarios that are more likely to crop up should be considered first and foremost, particularly when going to the back and beyond and language difficulties. You must have an out plan or just not take the risks of going down a certain route, geographically or otherwise.

You can have equally amazing trips, be able to immerse oneself in the local culture, meet lovely people and do things you never imagined without running out of money.
I'm sure it's worked out for a portion of people, but equally I'm sure that things have gone badly wrong for many others too.


Laurie Lee, Jack Kerouac, Knut Hamsun, John Steinbeck, Charles Bukowski, Herman Hesse and George Orwell would have all begged to differ. That is without question a spectacularly illiberal rant.
Last edited by nsew on 2 Dec 2019, 9:26pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: When you run out of money…

Postby Mike Sales » 2 Dec 2019, 9:21pm

Followers of several religions practice mendicancy. That is, living without money and relying on charity.

A mendicant (from Latin: mendicans, "begging") is one who practices mendicancy (begging) and relies chiefly or exclusively on charitable donations to survive. In principle, mendicant religious orders do not own property, either individually or collectively, and members have taken a vow of poverty, in order that all their time and energy could be expended on practicing or preaching and serving the poor. It is a form of asceticism.
Many religious orders adhere to a mendicant way of life, including the Catholic mendicant orders, Hindu ascetics, some Sufi dervishes of Islam, and the monastic orders of Jainism and Buddhism. In the Catholic Church, followers of Saint Francis of Assisi and Saint Dominic became known as mendicants, as they would beg for food while they preached to the villages.
While mendicants are the original type of monks in Buddhism and have a long history in Indian Hinduism and the countries which adapted Indian religious traditions, they did not become widespread in Christianity until the High Middle Ages. The Way of a Pilgrim depicts the life of an Eastern Christian mendicant.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendicant

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The utility cyclist
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Re: When you run out of money…

Postby The utility cyclist » 2 Dec 2019, 11:04pm

nsew wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:spending beyond your means early/running out of money is irresponsible IMO not to mention the potential to be extremely dangerous. Not just that but you are likely to put upon people's kindness when others may need it more.

As a Western traveller, a person who is making a LEISURE trip, one that you're not forced to make, I just find it repulsive that one can be putting upon others because of your recklessness in not planning for the unexpected/no fall back plan. sure, there can be times that something really out the ordinary crops up, but then taking steps to avoid those scenarios that are more likely to crop up should be considered first and foremost, particularly when going to the back and beyond and language difficulties. You must have an out plan or just not take the risks of going down a certain route, geographically or otherwise.

You can have equally amazing trips, be able to immerse oneself in the local culture, meet lovely people and do things you never imagined without running out of money.
I'm sure it's worked out for a portion of people, but equally I'm sure that things have gone badly wrong for many others too.


Laurie Lee, Jack Kerouac, Knut Hamsun, John Steinbeck, Charles Bukowski, Herman Hesse and George Orwell would have all begged to differ. That is without question a spectacularly illiberal rant.

No, it's not a "rant", it's my opinion on being responsible and respectful, you seem to be confused with regards to what illiberal means but keeping the personal insults aside deliberately putting yourself into hazardous scenarios and putting upon others generosity is not liberalism, it's damn irresponsible.
I've been lucky to enrich myself travelling as have many on here, met loads and done loads, but to leave yourself in situations that are all too common and relying on others to get you out the mire is reckless entitlement of the worst kind!

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Re: When you run out of money…

Postby nsew » 2 Dec 2019, 11:12pm

Naturally, I’ve been running out of money all over the world for going on four decades. It’s definitely doable.

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Re: When you run out of money…

Postby Vorpal » 3 Dec 2019, 9:41am

The utility cyclist wrote:
Vorpal wrote:That said, there seem to be some assumptions & privilege built into the idea that one must have money to travel.


who/where in the thread has this been said? Also define having 'money', you could have £300 and that last an absolute age, particularly if you are cycle camping/freegan and/or you've already planned in advance where you can work and have some money to help out but not rely upon it. You could also have £2k and that leave you begging on the streets, it's all relative to individual scenarios/travel plans.
I didn't say anyone said it. It was implied, not said.
The utility cyclist wrote:I see no assumptions by anyone on here at all as to needing a lot of money or anything with respect to privilege, just forummers saying travelling with no proper plan, travelling without sufficient monies for your trip (whatever money that is) and no back up plan for eventualities which we KNOW occur is irresponsible at best, reckless and potentially very dangerous.

it's about safety for yourself, and as mentioned travelling without fear or apprehension (wondering where you next meal/shelter is going to be) which can make such a trip hellish and importantly respect to others by not putting upon people and respect to the host countries.

Except that if that is your everyday state of existence, it makes no difference whether you are at home or riding you bike around unknown areas. The privilege is in assuming that everyone who tours is making that choice. That there is a difference between everyday existence and not knowing where your next meal is coming from. Or that you have any financial capability to plan for eventualities.

It can only be considered reckless and potentially dangerous if you've never chosen travelling around without any food or money as better than staying at home. I never made that choice, but I knew folks who did.

The phrase 'host country' sounds like someone may be travelling in another country than their own. The only place I went other than my own country when I was poor, was Canada. I was hitchhiking then, and I had a little money. Enough for basic food supplies. Not enough for contingency. Was that reckless? I don't know. I wouldn't have been any better off at home, and I was headed for friends. Also, I got to see some of Canada. I'd never been there before.

Is it disrespectful to need help?
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Re: When you run out of money…

Postby vegan dog » 3 Dec 2019, 10:10am

The utility cyclist wrote:they've not asked to be 'entertained' you're forcing yourself onto others and asking them for money unsolicited.


I don't know what your definition is of "forcing" and " "unsolicited", however I would not use those terms to describe someone who does a street performance in a private shopping precinct with the permission of the manager. People were so intrigued at the time to see westerners doing such things, that they flocked to the shopping precinct in droves. They even made the local press at the time and the manager of the shopping precinct was delighted with the increased publicity.

The utility cyclist wrote:Dressing up and going onto the streets for money is basically street begging

You are entitled to your opinion, but you don't get to provide a universally accepted definition of art.

The utility cyclist wrote:So you've never heard of travellers from the 'west' who having run out of money or got themselves into a situation because of stupidity


I have heard of all sorts of people doing all sorts of stupid things. It's certainly not confined to "westerners"

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Re: When you run out of money…

Postby brynpoeth » 3 Dec 2019, 11:41am

Some buskers are awful, very loud, one blocks ones ears and hurries by
Might give them some money to shut them up

Some buskers are good, a lad about nine years old playing classical violin for example, bet he made a lot of ca$h :wink:
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