Riding to the COP26 climate meetings from London

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Oldjohnw
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Re: Riding to the COP26 climate meetings from London

Post by Oldjohnw »

thirdcrank wrote: 9 Sep 2021, 4:02pm I'm reflecting on whether it's time to stop beating my wife.
:D
John
scottg
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Re: Riding to the COP26 climate meetings from London

Post by scottg »

Oldjohnw wrote: 9 Sep 2021, 4:28pm
thirdcrank wrote: 9 Sep 2021, 4:02pm I'm reflecting on whether it's time to stop beating my wife.
:D
Are you using a vegan riding crop, produced by union labour ?
Did you walk or cycle on a bike made with recycled British steel
to the gender inclusive toy shop ?
Is said shop owned by a collective of people who live within 3.5km of
the shop ?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
Deutsche Luftschiffahrts-AG
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
pwa
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Re: Riding to the COP26 climate meetings from London

Post by pwa »

DevonDamo wrote: 9 Sep 2021, 12:14pm
pwa wrote: 9 Sep 2021, 4:54amBut it is still irritating to have ones own need to cut down car use highlighted time after time by folk whose means of having a nice holiday results in more greenhouse gas damage in a couple of flights than I manage in a year with a car. I know I need to cut down my car use, and I'm making progress in the right direction, but I don't want folk with even bigger failings pointing at mine whilst ignoring their own. That isn't right and it makes no sense. I look forward to seeing climate change protesters disrupting access to Heathrow, which so far seems to have escaped their attention, unlike terrestrial public transport.
My last post attempted to explain the devastatingly-effective 'look - a squirrel!' tactic which so many have been taken in by - i.e. being distracted from what climate protesters are really saying ('we're in big trouble and need legislative action') by what the right wing media want you to think they're saying ('look at me in my Prius and woven sandals - I'm better than you.')

If you believe the overwhelming evidence that climate change is going to create a nightmare scenario for humanity, then what you've written above is analogous to someone standing in a pool of petrol complaining that the person demanding that the petrol be pumped away tuts every time he gets his cigarettes out, which isn't fair because he should be tutting at the guys over there about to fire up their barbecue.

It might be more effective if the likes of Extinction Rebellion, Greta Thunberg et al made a point of travelling everywhere by LearJet, just to emphasise to the public - we're not telling you to be like us, we're telling you to support Government action to change the behaviour of people like us (and the car manufacturers and petrochemical industries etc etc.) This might pull the rug out from the right wing media's tactic of distracting the gullible public from thinking about the real issue with a hypocrisy scandal which they've manufactured.
I disliked frequent flyers lecturing folk about car use long before the mainstream media covered this sort of thing. Car use is a problem, but so is flying. I acknowledge my own faults in this, and I am working on them. But I want others to do the same. I want them to acknowledge their weak points and resolve to make improvements. We all have areas where we can and should reduce our negative impact on the climate, and mine includes car use, which I have been reducing and continue to scrutinise. Those who fly ought to be looking for reductions if they are serious about this stuff. There are people out there whose impact on the climate through flying dwarfs the impact of my car use. We need to take it seriously. Whether we put our greenhouse gases into the atmosphere by flying, driving a car or heating our homes, it all counts.
slowster
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Re: Riding to the COP26 climate meetings from London

Post by slowster »

pwa wrote: 9 Sep 2021, 9:04pm I disliked frequent flyers lecturing folk about car use long before the mainstream media covered this sort of thing. Car use is a problem, but so is flying. I acknowledge my own faults in this, and I am working on them. But I want others to do the same. I want them to acknowledge their weak points and resolve to make improvements. We all have areas where we can and should reduce our negative impact on the climate, and mine includes car use, which I have been reducing and continue to scrutinise. Those who fly ought to be looking for reductions if they are serious about this stuff. There are people out there whose impact on the climate through flying dwarfs the impact of my car use. We need to take it seriously. Whether we put our greenhouse gases into the atmosphere by flying, driving a car or heating our homes, it all counts.
Like you, I gave up flying on holiday many years ago. The problem is not one of individuals who still choose to do so, it is one of governments not doing anything about the level of aviation emissions.

It is a global systemic problem, and it needs a global systemic solution. One solution is for governments to agree to tax aviation fuel, which is currently untaxed (compared with 57.5p per litre of petrol plus VAT on top), i.e. a high enough tax to reflect the environmental harm, which would increase the costs of flying sufficiently to make flying so expensive that many would then choose not to, or even be unable to afford to. It would also increase the incentive to accelerate investment in production of Sustainable Aviation Fuel (e.g. e-kerosene made using hydrogen derived from water with electricity from renewable sources and carbon dioxide extracted from the atmosphere).

Ignore people who lecture you about car use - the governments of every developed country are the problem (and their backers in the fossil fuel industry, right wing media etc.). People like you and I can choose to make individual sacrifices which will reduce our emissions by a significant amount, but it will still make no difference unless there is urgent strong international action by governments.

That also applies to the other major sources of emissions. For example, turning down the thermostat a couple of degrees in our homes is not going to be enough. Figuring out how best to insulate our existing housing stock is one of the major problems, since I doubt that switching millions of homes to heating using renewable electricity and e.g. heat pumps is viable without also vastly better insulation to limit the otherwise huge increase in electricity demand. That is something which needs to be driven/lead by government to begin with, until the technological solutions and products are refined and ready for the private sector to take up and manufacture and deliver at scale.

In short: 400 billion tonnes remaining capacity of the atmosphere to absorb CO2 before catastrophic effects occur > 8 billion people > 50 tonnes per person.

There are not enough poor people with low carbon footprints to offset the rest of us in the developed world carrying on at our present rate of emissions. Personal sacrifices are just tinkering around the edges. Their real value is in providing an example for others so that they are more accepting of the government imposing sacrifices on all of us.
Tyre Lady
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Re: Riding to the COP26 climate meetings from London

Post by Tyre Lady »

...and this returns back to the OP's intention to help those who cannot afford to insulate their homes and thus pay higher fuel bills, thus contributing to higher carbon emissions.

Just to share. Attended a workshop tonight with Surrey County Council to help provide some suggestions to what they and us can do in helping them to redevelop their climate strategy plan. Came out with:
1. Surrey County Council needs to lead the way with actions and not just words
a) Divest their pension funds away from Fossil Fuels
b) Stop support for oil drilling and Gatwick / Heathrow airport expansions

2. Have energy consultants that can advise householders and evolve their thinking plus make them aware of grants to help them insulate their homes, install air source heat pumps, etc

3. Education across the board from MPs, to managers to the community
a) Support and use the faith sector: eco-churches; mosques & sikh temples are guiding their followers
b) Educate our MPs (our local MP has so far voted against all climate measures as well as a Climate Emergency)
c) Develop curriculum for schools to develop heating engineers / consultants

4. Create dedicated cycle infrastructure
a) Move investments on road infrastructure to cycle highways
b) Create separate lanes for cyclist, e-scooters/e-bicycles, cargo cyclist, walkers
c ) Build it and it will come

5. Develop cycle hubs, identify areas for tool stations, safe cycle parking infrastructure

6. Maintain existing structure

7. Thought leader - critical thinkers

8 Reduce waste - the production of a single use item has several transport stages + when it becomes waste it is transported to the waste sites and then much of it is still shipped across to places like Turkey & India who have poor waste management facilities....thus having shipped it over, can end up in our polluted waters. Food waste is disgustingly high.6.7 million tonnes of food is wasted per year which totals to costs of £10.2 billion each year and a lot of that has been flown / shipped in.
Low carbon, zero waste running journey
Carlton green
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Re: Riding to the COP26 climate meetings from London

Post by Carlton green »

“It is a global systemic problem, and it needs a global systemic solution. One solution is for governments to agree to tax aviation fuel, which is currently untaxed (compared with 57.5p per litre of petrol plus VAT on top), i.e. a high enough tax to reflect the environmental harm, which would increase the costs of flying sufficiently to make flying so expensive that many would then choose not to, or even be unable to afford to. It would also increase the incentive to accelerate investment in production of Sustainable Aviation Fuel (e.g. e-kerosene made using hydrogen derived from water with electricity from renewable sources and carbon dioxide extracted from the atmosphere).”

As I understand it the EU are about to show leadership in this field with the introduction of Tax on Aviation Fuel. IMHO it’s absolutely bonkers not to do it and it should have been done years ago - IMHO the current situation is certainly unjust. The U.K. might possibly follow the EU’s lead on this. As for Sustainable Aviation Fuel, I like the concept of man made fuel and wonder how broadly it could be used. Leave the vast bulk of fossil fuels in the ground and manufacture fuels using power from renewable sources, if it can be done then it should be done and done for multiple reasons.
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Tinnishill
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Re: Riding to the COP26 climate meetings from London

Post by Tinnishill »

by Tyre Lady » 26 Aug 2021, 4:33pm
We will be leaving from a 2,500 year old tree where the Magna Carta was conceived in Runnymede and will be riding for a Terra Carta instead. We intend to end up at a tree planted by the Suffragettes in Glasgow.
Just a passing thought, the Magna Carta stuff will be met with indifference in Scotland and you are likely to be confused with these historically illiterate clowns;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... e-58254322

If you are looking for feminist related sites to do stuff at you could do worse than the statue of La Pasionara;

http://womenofscotland.org.uk/memorials/la-pasionaria

The vaccine passport law has been passed by parliament;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... s-58506013

In Glasgow the tradition for big political assemblies is for them to gather at Glasgow Green, Kelvingrove or George Square (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_George_Square). These sites are likely to be fenced off and entry controlled by covid documents.
Agitate, educate, organise.
DevonDamo
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Re: Riding to the COP26 climate meetings from London

Post by DevonDamo »

I thought the following was quite funny, and is relevant to the question of what's more important here - individual protester's spotless green credentials or tackling our crooked political/economic systems. It's peppered with expletives, aussie-style, though so definitely don't watch if that's going to bother you:

Oldjohnw
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Location: South Warwickshire

Re: Riding to the COP26 climate meetings from London

Post by Oldjohnw »

And in case you thought that the UK government was in danger of taking climate change seriously:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... SApp_Other
John
Tyre Lady
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Re: Riding to the COP26 climate meetings from London

Post by Tyre Lady »

Agree @Carlton
Tinnishill wrote: 10 Sep 2021, 11:08am
by Tyre Lady » 26 Aug 2021, 4:33pm
We will be leaving from a 2,500 year old tree where the Magna Carta was conceived in Runnymede and will be riding for a Terra Carta instead. We intend to end up at a tree planted by the Suffragettes in Glasgow.
Just a passing thought, the Magna Carta stuff will be met with indifference in Scotland and you are likely to be confused with these historically illiterate clowns;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... e-58254322

If you are looking for feminist related sites to do stuff at you could do worse than the statue of La Pasionara;

http://womenofscotland.org.uk/memorials/la-pasionaria

The vaccine passport law has been passed by parliament;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... s-58506013

In Glasgow the tradition for big political assemblies is for them to gather at Glasgow Green, Kelvingrove or George Square (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_George_Square). These sites are likely to be fenced off and entry controlled by covid documents.
Thank you @Tinnishill The idea is to go from Tree to Tree. There is much discussion about the destruction of trees in places like Brazil and Indonesia. Trees are a lifeline for us. They also provide hope and have inspired many from all sorts of background

Why Anckerwycke? Scotland might not care about Magna Carta, but it has been used in legal systems around the world, human rights and is of great significance in the US as it underpins their constitution. We want to extend those rights further to Rights for the Earth, Rights for our Environment.

Why Suffragettes Tree? For us it was a fight for make the world a much kinder place to women. There are many suffering from climate anxiety and we will need to campaign our leaders to make a difference, make a big bold change.

At the end of the day, I want to take a step back and let the 13 year old shine. She and her little sister have campaigned for climate action in their schools. I'm just the chaperone :)

Thank you for the news about the vaccine passport :)
Low carbon, zero waste running journey
Dascmo
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Re: Riding to the COP26 climate meetings from London

Post by Dascmo »

Hello All, I am apparently the "OP" in the parlance of internet forums.

I am sorry to not have had time to follow this discussion, since I have started my ride from Montana and have now made it nearly 1,000 miles to Colorado. I have been talking with people about climate issues, writing, corresponding with students, connecting with new and old friends, and riding through big mountains and plains.

The volume and quality of the comments on this subject astounds me. I have not been able to read them all, much less respond to the many excellent points made on all sides. I definitely appreciate the commenters who have provided useful information on riding from London to Glasgow - which was my main intention in posting.

I want to respond to some of the points I have seen so far:

I HAVE consulted with climate activists, scientists, and a climate ethicist at my University about my ride and flight. They acknowledged the quandaries of how to be most effective and ethical in climate activism, but supported my plans in general, and the local offsetting program we started in particular. I do not fear criticism and I seek ideas and input about issues that matter. I'd just say that anyone who thinks that climate issues allow for simple moral rules to guide all behavior is fooling themselves.

My ride and the work I do in education is premised on the notion that direct experience is the best teacher. That means often putting myself into uncomfortable situations physically, socially, and philosophically. Those spaces are where I find the most interesting and surprising learning happens for myself and students. That's because the actual world is far more complex and nuanced than the one experienced through a screen. I have found that travel by bicycle encourages social connections and environmental experiences that are hard to come by in other modes. That is why I am doing this by bike as much as possible.

That is also why I think attending, volunteering, and networking at the COP26 in person is important. I come from a region that generally does not take climate change nearly as seriously as it should. People in the American West often respect direct experience, compelling stories, and hard work far more than scientific studies. That is terribly unfortunate in many ways, but it also allows an opening for conversations and mutual learning from experience. My goal is to share what I see and learn with the many who can't attend COP26 and need a credible regional source who has an understanding of their issues, cultures, and needs.

If I were simply into hedonistic cycling trips, I would certainly not plan to go to Scotland in November! I can read weather data. I also hope that more on this cycling forum might get out from behind their desks, put their pedals where their pixels are, and ride to COP26.

Again, I am amazed by the discussion that has taken place here and I hope this forum itself has done something to advance thoughts about the thorny issues of how best to work for a livable, lovable world. The issues raised here have made me consider my course more deeply - and I am not certain that I will fly to the UK.

I will read the thread more closely when I have time. Now I have to ride 40 miles to a meeting with a sustainable business leader and an environmental group. Thanks all.
Carlton green
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Re: Riding to the COP26 climate meetings from London

Post by Carlton green »

It was good to hear from the OP and I wish him well.

What’s not so good to hear is that some people on this forum have discouraged him from taking the necessary flight to support the (somewhat valuable) work that he is doing. One could be forgiven for thinking that he’s (massively) doing the work, putting his time, effort and money where is mouth is and the critics are doing nothing much useful - shame on them.

Perhaps someone might add something useful to the chap’s journey instead of criticism. Put their efforts where there mouth is. If I lived on route then I’d help out with a meal or an overnight room and if I were enough of a cyclist (it’s far beyond what I could manage) I’d do all or part of the route with him. Who can do any of those to support this chap?
thirdcrank
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Re: Riding to the COP26 climate meetings from London

Post by thirdcrank »

One thing this confirms to me is that if you want advice/ information about cycling routes and other similar matters, then ask questions about that.
pwa
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Re: Riding to the COP26 climate meetings from London

Post by pwa »

Taken as a whole, I think this thread has gone well. Yes, the OP took a bit of flack about a weakness in their plan which they themselves acknowledged, but they took it well and came back with a reasoned response. Within the circles of folk who spend a lot of time thinking about climate change, when to fly and when not to fly is an area of vigorous discussion and will remain so. The OP did get a few pointers on their main query before folk ran out of things to say on that and went off on a tangent about flying. Anyway, I wish them well with whatever they do next.
Vorpal
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Re: Riding to the COP26 climate meetings from London

Post by Vorpal »

Carlton green wrote: 10 Sep 2021, 5:38am

As I understand it the EU are about to show leadership in this field with the introduction of Tax on Aviation Fuel. IMHO it’s absolutely bonkers not to do it and it should have been done years ago - IMHO the current situation is certainly unjust. The U.K. might possibly follow the EU’s lead on this. As for Sustainable Aviation Fuel, I like the concept of man made fuel and wonder how broadly it could be used. Leave the vast bulk of fossil fuels in the ground and manufacture fuels using power from renewable sources, if it can be done then it should be done and done for multiple reasons.
The EU also invest millions in research for alternatives, including sustainable aviation fuel, electric planes, and other alternatives.

As for the UK following? I doubt it. The government believe that the aviation industry are critical to the economy, to the tune of about 11% of the covid corporate finance scheme. Industry firms have also benefitted from the job retention scheme, VAT deferral, the coronavirus business interruption loan scheme, and waived fees for air traffic control & airports.

There is some substance to the belief. The UK is the 3rd largest aviation market in the world. Between airports and some large employers, such as Rolls Royce & Airbus, the proportions of people employed in aviation are high enough that towns like Luton and Crawley would be economically vulnerable if there were a downturn that did not receive that kind of funding. Additionally, some airports are partly owned by the local authorities https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/re ... s/sn00323/

There are of course, alternatives, but those require work, thought & appropriate investment.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
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