Bike Packing v Panniers - the evidence
Bike Packing v Panniers - the evidence
Interesting article about the aero-dynamic drag of panniers v bike packing
http://www.cyclingabout.com/speed-diffe ... g-results/
thoughts?
http://www.cyclingabout.com/speed-diffe ... g-results/
thoughts?
- Heltor Chasca
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Re: Bike Packing v Panniers - the evidence
Thanks for sharing. Very interesting. I've been watching these two on a YouTube for a while. Likeable. It'd be interesting to hear what 17+l bag you use. I can't think of anything other than a dry Bag. I'll keep scratching.
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Re: Bike Packing v Panniers - the evidence
Interesting but not sure I would ever consider option 1 for touring, that bag under the top tube is mostly likely to get in the way of my legs and any down tube bottles I would carry.
Frankly a few seconds of extra drag is hardly of great importance when touring....
Nor would I use such huge panniers either, I have an old set of Carradice front panniers that are petite, but with a small top rack bag and handlebar bag, carry all I require for a tour.
Frankly a few seconds of extra drag is hardly of great importance when touring....
Nor would I use such huge panniers either, I have an old set of Carradice front panniers that are petite, but with a small top rack bag and handlebar bag, carry all I require for a tour.
I stand and rejoice everytime I see a woman ride by on a wheel the picture of free, untrammeled womanhood. HG Wells
Re: Bike Packing v Panniers - the evidence
I only use small rear panniers as well (12litres) and can get everything I need in these so with a bit of careful packing I'm sure I could get everything I need in a 17 litre saddle bag unless I was touring in winter, so wouldn't need the frame or handlebar bag
Generally I'm happy with my touring bike and panniers, but I've got an upcoming tour with 4 other people who like to ride fast: our last 40 mile training ride was 21mph over a hilly route, and the speed only dropped 19 mph when we upped the distance to 125 miles over a similarly hilly route. The tour is 110 miles a day for 9 days and they will be on race bikes with big saddle bags, and I don't think I could keep up on my touring bike with panniers.
I tend to tour with other people and the majority are moving to bike packing, mostly because it means they don't have to buy another bike. They try touring on their usual bike with saddlebag and then see no need to change
So it was interesting to see the evidence
Generally I'm happy with my touring bike and panniers, but I've got an upcoming tour with 4 other people who like to ride fast: our last 40 mile training ride was 21mph over a hilly route, and the speed only dropped 19 mph when we upped the distance to 125 miles over a similarly hilly route. The tour is 110 miles a day for 9 days and they will be on race bikes with big saddle bags, and I don't think I could keep up on my touring bike with panniers.
I tend to tour with other people and the majority are moving to bike packing, mostly because it means they don't have to buy another bike. They try touring on their usual bike with saddlebag and then see no need to change
So it was interesting to see the evidence
Last edited by mnichols on 13 Apr 2017, 12:42pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Bike Packing v Panniers - the evidence
For one to two nights I use a Carradice longflap, which sits behind the thighs and bum, so adding only a little to frontal area and the turbulence is pretty chopped up and dirty when it reaches that sort of area anyway....that it sits close to the body it presents little purchase to side winds and so is only noticeable on steeper climbs >5%. At the front prior to Easter, I have my winter bag on a French type front rack and have it aligned like a nose cone, so it has minimal increase in frontal area. All this is on an audax bike. I can travel at just a little below my unencumbered pace and it's a pleasant ride, though not a stable as a full four pannier set up.
On a full tour, feats of distance isn't my objective. The philosophy is different. A sturdy steel tourer and four panniers. Comfort, discovery and the heady elixir of exertion under ones own steam. This isn't a race, and I'm not out to impress myself or others with my deeds, even if I were capable of heroic efforts, which I'm not ( the ego having run its course when i sampled racing and realised my mediocrity and was happy). I'm on holiday to visit sites of beauty and antiquity; cities of life via an ecological and harmonious method of transport with wunderlust or ancient migration routes as my guide. Comfort and practicality are paramount. I've acquired robust, lightweight and non bulky kit over 20 years or more of touring, but that's about it. I average no more than 12 mph come plain or mountain range and am happy with that and rarely ride for more than 5 or 6 hours a day. In 50 to 70 miles journey there are many sites of interest either anthropological or natural that I will want to investigate and savour. I'm away from time schedules and electronics and the rat race and immersed in an adventure of my own tailoring. I love it.
On a full tour, feats of distance isn't my objective. The philosophy is different. A sturdy steel tourer and four panniers. Comfort, discovery and the heady elixir of exertion under ones own steam. This isn't a race, and I'm not out to impress myself or others with my deeds, even if I were capable of heroic efforts, which I'm not ( the ego having run its course when i sampled racing and realised my mediocrity and was happy). I'm on holiday to visit sites of beauty and antiquity; cities of life via an ecological and harmonious method of transport with wunderlust or ancient migration routes as my guide. Comfort and practicality are paramount. I've acquired robust, lightweight and non bulky kit over 20 years or more of touring, but that's about it. I average no more than 12 mph come plain or mountain range and am happy with that and rarely ride for more than 5 or 6 hours a day. In 50 to 70 miles journey there are many sites of interest either anthropological or natural that I will want to investigate and savour. I'm away from time schedules and electronics and the rat race and immersed in an adventure of my own tailoring. I love it.
Searching for, and camping in, places of antiquity and wild beauty. Former ironman, 3PCX, Rough Stuff Fellowship, fell runner, regional time trial champion and 20 odd years of cyclo camping around Europe.
Re: Bike Packing v Panniers - the evidence
Thanks for posting this, it was interesting.
An interesting repeat of the experiment would be to ride at a fixed speed and see what the average power output needed to maintain this would was as this would give an indication of how much effort was required as the relationship between speed and power isn't linear.
An interesting repeat of the experiment would be to ride at a fixed speed and see what the average power output needed to maintain this would was as this would give an indication of how much effort was required as the relationship between speed and power isn't linear.
Re: Bike Packing v Panniers - the evidence
Other things to consider
It's the hills where the weight comes into its own and drag diminishes, and the balance of load is more critical, both is acent and descending safely.
Anyone who has ridden TT's with aero frames, disks and tri spokes, especially in mountainous terrain will know the unnerving affect of side winds...I wouldn't fancy some of the bike packing setups, with top loaded seat packs, handlebar weighted, and frame packs in high winds ( some Indy pac endurance riders have been blown off because of the inherent instability). Where as four pannier bolts one into a 'on rails' stability.
It's the hills where the weight comes into its own and drag diminishes, and the balance of load is more critical, both is acent and descending safely.
Anyone who has ridden TT's with aero frames, disks and tri spokes, especially in mountainous terrain will know the unnerving affect of side winds...I wouldn't fancy some of the bike packing setups, with top loaded seat packs, handlebar weighted, and frame packs in high winds ( some Indy pac endurance riders have been blown off because of the inherent instability). Where as four pannier bolts one into a 'on rails' stability.
Searching for, and camping in, places of antiquity and wild beauty. Former ironman, 3PCX, Rough Stuff Fellowship, fell runner, regional time trial champion and 20 odd years of cyclo camping around Europe.
Re: Bike Packing v Panniers - the evidence
trilathon wrote:
On a full tour, feats of distance isn't my objective. The philosophy is different. A sturdy steel tourer and four panniers. Comfort, discovery and the heady elixir of exertion under ones own steam. This isn't a race
I couldn't agree more. I've got three tours planned this year and the others will be ridden at a very sedate pace, we will stop often and take in the sights and sounds. However, I've also signed up for this one, and the other guys like to ride fast. It wouldn't be my choice, and when I signed up I had presumed that we would be taking it easy and enjoying ourselves, but so far all the training rides have been quick, and I'm not sure that I can persuade them to take it more slowly, so I'll have to get a bit faster, and if changing my setup helps for no more effort then that's a good thing.
But also, reading other posts on here, and through general observation people seem to be switching to bike packing for credit card touring, which this is, so if the evidence says that it's less work then I might give it go.
Re: Bike Packing v Panniers - the evidence
mnichols wrote:I only use small rear panniers as well (12litres) and can get everything I need in these so with a bit of careful packing I'm sure I could get everything I need in a 17 litre saddle bag unless I was touring in winter, so wouldn't need the frame or handlebar bag
I would be interested to see an actually-used 17 litre kit list as I struggled to get it down to 26 litres, often having stuff strapped on top too, so I wonder whether I'm taking more or bulkier.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
Re: Bike Packing v Panniers - the evidence
mnichols wrote:Interesting article about the aero-dynamic drag of panniers v bike packing
http://www.cyclingabout.com/speed-diffe ... g-results/
thoughts?
Aero dynamics in bags are to put into account only if going in very windy areas, but still won't make a sensible difference for most of the common users.
Those guys that do race, like the Transcontinental race, they would use a low-profile arrangement of bags, also they carry very little with them. But it's a whole different world!
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...
Re: Bike Packing v Panniers - the evidence
Interesting article. The message (for me) is that if you don't have much to carry and want to be efficient, keep stuff in line with your body. That kind of fits with what I would expect anyway, so nice to have it confirmed.
But on my tours I have wanted a proper tent and other stuff that adds up, so I end up with four neat panniers. Which, I accept, takes more effort to keep rolling on the flat than a few minimal bits of in-line baggage. But that is comparing inadequate baggage with adequate baggage.
On slow climbs wind resistance is not a big factor. On descents a bit of extra drag is helpful because it saves on braking. So the real disadvantage of panniers is on the flat. And I don't do much touring on the flat because it is boring.
Panniers also keep the weight low, and that means more confident and therefore faster cornering than with the same weight higher up.
There is no right or wrong with this stuff, just choices based on personal preferences. And what you choose this year may not be what you choose next year.
But on my tours I have wanted a proper tent and other stuff that adds up, so I end up with four neat panniers. Which, I accept, takes more effort to keep rolling on the flat than a few minimal bits of in-line baggage. But that is comparing inadequate baggage with adequate baggage.
On slow climbs wind resistance is not a big factor. On descents a bit of extra drag is helpful because it saves on braking. So the real disadvantage of panniers is on the flat. And I don't do much touring on the flat because it is boring.
Panniers also keep the weight low, and that means more confident and therefore faster cornering than with the same weight higher up.
There is no right or wrong with this stuff, just choices based on personal preferences. And what you choose this year may not be what you choose next year.
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Re: Bike Packing v Panniers - the evidence
It is an interesting report, but qualifications are in order. The relation of aerodynamic drag to speed is not at all linear, but increases exponentially. Hence it matters little at lower speeds, but becomes increasingly important at higher speeds. I notice that the tests were done at what I think is a pretty high speed for loaded touring of about 30 km/h. Do the same test at 20 km and the result will look rather different.
The author downplays the importance of weight, but for me one other concern with weight is where it allows me to ride. I love riding in the hills and mountains, and there every kg counts. Maybe not for ultimate speed, but for the pleasure and feasibility of climbing.
Finally, in my experience of riding at lower speeds than 30 km/h, tyres play perhaps the biggest role. My current touring tyres are the new Compass Rat Trap Pass 26x2.1 tyres, and they are obviously fast, and the fastest 26 inch tyres I have ever enjoyed.
As for luggage, I have ditched front panniers quite a few years ago, and after some more improvements to my kit I have now replaced the 40 litre Ortlieb backrollers at 1.9 kg a set with the smaller and lighter Altura Arc 15 panniers at 1.05 kg a set of 33 litres. I can still fit all my kit for a European tour in decent weather inside, with the wet and dirty tent on top, as before. I notice that thanks to the narrower and lower profile aero drag too is a bit less, I think.
The author downplays the importance of weight, but for me one other concern with weight is where it allows me to ride. I love riding in the hills and mountains, and there every kg counts. Maybe not for ultimate speed, but for the pleasure and feasibility of climbing.
Finally, in my experience of riding at lower speeds than 30 km/h, tyres play perhaps the biggest role. My current touring tyres are the new Compass Rat Trap Pass 26x2.1 tyres, and they are obviously fast, and the fastest 26 inch tyres I have ever enjoyed.
As for luggage, I have ditched front panniers quite a few years ago, and after some more improvements to my kit I have now replaced the 40 litre Ortlieb backrollers at 1.9 kg a set with the smaller and lighter Altura Arc 15 panniers at 1.05 kg a set of 33 litres. I can still fit all my kit for a European tour in decent weather inside, with the wet and dirty tent on top, as before. I notice that thanks to the narrower and lower profile aero drag too is a bit less, I think.
Last edited by willem jongman on 15 Apr 2017, 10:36am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Bike Packing v Panniers - the evidence
trilathon wrote:For one to two nights I use a Carradice longflap, which sits behind the thighs and bum, so adding only a little to frontal area and the turbulence is pretty chopped up and dirty when it reaches that sort of area anyway....that it sits close to the body it presents little purchase to side winds and so is only noticeable on steeper climbs >5%.
I've giving the Longflap some serious consideration, do you use a bagman support? It doesn't seem necessary if attached at the seat post
Re: Bike Packing v Panniers - the evidence
mjr wrote:I would be interested to see an actually-used 17 litre kit list as I struggled to get it down to 26 litres, often having stuff strapped on top too, so I wonder whether I'm taking more or bulkier.
I'm away for a few days over Easter, and don't have access to my computer, only my phone, but I'm happy to post my pack list in a few days time
Re: Bike Packing v Panniers - the evidence
I'm surprised there was no (practical) difference in drag between front and rear panniers. I would have expected front panniers to be less aerodynamic than rears, because they're in front of the body.
I agree with the points made already that these speeds are high for touring and so in practice aerodynamics will be less significant than this would indicate. On the other hand, they become more important in windy weather (and not just headwinds but crosswinds too). And, of course, speed isn't really that important on tour. However, I don't agree that the time saving is irrelevant; it's a quarter of an hour over a reasonable day's touring of 100km, not mere seconds, but more importantly by saving that energy you'll be fresher at the end of the day - and the day after. Or you'll be able to spend longer over lunch, sightseeing or whatever.
But then again, speed and energy aren't even the most important things on *most* tours for *most* people. I think the most significant line in the whole test is right at the end:
I agree with the points made already that these speeds are high for touring and so in practice aerodynamics will be less significant than this would indicate. On the other hand, they become more important in windy weather (and not just headwinds but crosswinds too). And, of course, speed isn't really that important on tour. However, I don't agree that the time saving is irrelevant; it's a quarter of an hour over a reasonable day's touring of 100km, not mere seconds, but more importantly by saving that energy you'll be fresher at the end of the day - and the day after. Or you'll be able to spend longer over lunch, sightseeing or whatever.
But then again, speed and energy aren't even the most important things on *most* tours for *most* people. I think the most significant line in the whole test is right at the end:
For me, panniers are convenient, capacious and even comforting; the smell of Carradice Super C is the smell of holiday!If you’re carrying bikepacking bags, you’re probably not on a touring bike and you probably have a lighter load.
If you’re using bikepacking bags on the road, you’re probably on a lighter weight bike, with slicker/narrower tyres, and in a more aerodynamic position. The time savings from you bag setup choice are just the beginning, really.