Tuscany recommendations?

Cycle-touring, Expeditions, Adventures, Major cycle routes NOT LeJoG (see other special board)
Cyril Haearn
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Re: Tuscany recommendations?

Post by Cyril Haearn »

What about language, is Italian easy to learn, can one use Latin, do many people there speak English?
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Gattonero
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Re: Tuscany recommendations?

Post by Gattonero »

No you can't use Latin unless you're attending a sung mass on Sunday :mrgreen:
Finding people that would speak (and understand!) English at decent level is always a gamble anywhere, but hand gestures help a lot. Bring a pocket-sized dictionary to translate the common words, and pen+paper always help for jotting down the route to a place you can't understand where it is.
Btw, Tuscany if often lumpy with hills and hot in summer.
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...
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ConRAD
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Re: Tuscany recommendations?

Post by ConRAD »

Cyril Haearn wrote:... can one use Latin ?

... why, do you speak Latin ? if yes, how do you translate "bicycle" ... google translate says "habebat vehentem" :mrgreen:
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Cyril Haearn
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Re: Tuscany recommendations?

Post by Cyril Haearn »

A cycle is ceffyl haearn, iron horse, in Welsh, I would try that in Latin
Italian seems a beautiful language, maybe not so difficult for us to learn
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MarcusT
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Re: Tuscany recommendations?

Post by MarcusT »

Tourist areas have a good grasp of English, but the pocket dictionary is not nearly as useful as a translation app for your phone. It can translate entire phrases and vocalize them.
As far as learning Italian; it's about as difficult as learning French, Spanish or Portuguese. English being a mutt language, distanced itself from the Latin languages centuries ago. The masculine/ feminine words as well as the conjugations of the verbs make it the most challenging.

BTW, all of Tuscany is beautiful, just like most of Italy
I wish it were as easy as riding a bike
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Re: Tuscany recommendations?

Post by Vorpal »

Lots of people in Italy study Latin in school, so you can find people who know Latin, but I think you're more likely to find people who speak English.

Lots of people also take French as a second language in school because it's easier for them than English. I have some Italian friends who learned English as adults because their second language in school was French.

The biggest problem comes with regional and dialectic variations that aren't in the dictionary, or you can't learn from a short course in Italian. This happens more with food than anything else. A dish or food that has the same name in two towns 10 km apart, may be completely different.
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Gattonero
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Re: Tuscany recommendations?

Post by Gattonero »

Vorpal wrote:Lots of people in Italy study Latin in school, so you can find people who know Latin, but I think you're more likely to find people who speak English.

Lots of people also take French as a second language in school because it's easier for them than English. I have some Italian friends who learned English as adults because their second language in school was French.

The biggest problem comes with regional and dialectic variations that aren't in the dictionary, or you can't learn from a short course in Italian. This happens more with food than anything else. A dish or food that has the same name in two towns 10 km apart, may be completely different.


We didn't really study Latin in secondary school unless you had a good teacher that was fond for it, and only some high schools will teach Latin as part of the program. In fact, not many people in Italy can read/talk latin, let alone reading the numbers! :wink:

When enrolling for secondary school you had the choice for learning English or French, I guess is still like that but AFAIK today they start from the later years of primary school (!). I guess it's as anywhere, younger generations are more likely to speak a decent English.

Oh, and the dialects!
Italian language can be difficult to understand due to the wildly different pronunciation of the same word within different dialects.
As a rule of thumb, the northern area tends to speak "stiff" pronouncing the vocals more or less closed, while the south tends to speak with very open vocals (i.e. in Naples it sounds like they speak with vocals only :mrgreen: ). In Tuscany they have a good pronunciation, must be 'cause is where the Italian language was born
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...
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ConRAD
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Re: Tuscany recommendations?

Post by ConRAD »

Vorpal wrote:... lots of people in Italy study Latin in school, so you can find people who know Latin ...

That's absolutely NOT TRUE !!!
I was born and I've been living in this Country for over 65 years right now.
Nowadays, if you're lucky, you can exchange a few words with some priest, maybe !!! That's it !!!
It's a pity, I know, but from a practical point of view Latin today is totally useless ... as far as I know!!
During my secondary school ... well ... yes, I indeed remember that I did study some Caesar, Cicero and Seneca but today I can't absolutely say anything in Latin.
French, except for some border regions with France and Switzerland is undergoing a sort of an obsolescent status probably ending up to an irreversible form of desuetude (Latin desuetudo) ... in favour of English, of course.
German is very common in Trentino-Alto Adige.
... but ... but, BTW, do you know that Italian is definitely a wonderful language ??
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Re: Tuscany recommendations?

Post by Vorpal »

ConRAD wrote:
Vorpal wrote:... lots of people in Italy study Latin in school, so you can find people who know Latin ...

That's absolutely NOT TRUE !!!
I was born and I've been living in this Country for over 65 years right now.
Nowadays, if you're lucky, you can exchange a few words with some priest, maybe !!! That's it !!!
It's a pity, I know, but from a practical point of view Latin today is totally useless ... as far as I know!!
During my secondary school ... well ... yes, I indeed remember that I did study some Caesar, Cicero and Seneca but today I can't absolutely say anything in Latin.
French, except for some border regions with France and Switzerland is undergoing a sort of an obsolescent status probably ending up to an irreversible form of desuetude (Latin desuetudo) ... in favour of English, of course.
German is very common in Trentino-Alto Adige.
... but ... but, BTW, do you know that Italian is definitely a wonderful language ??

Parlo Italiano :) Ho lavorato per una ditta del gruppo di Fiat durante 14 anni. Ma domenticato molto perche imparo il Norvegese.

You can say that it is absolutely not true that some Italians learn Latin in school, but I have met a number of Italians who studied Latin and told me it was quite common. They were mostly in Modena, Bologna, Torino. You will note that I also said that it was easier to find people who speak English.

Most of the people I know who took French in school are in their 40s and 50s (or older). They said they took it because it was easy, rather than another reason.
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nirakaro
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Re: Tuscany recommendations?

Post by nirakaro »

I assume that Cyril Haearn, who asked about it, knows some Latin (though may not speak it like a native :D ). I did A Level Latin, and though I've never tried to use it in Italy, it does make it a lot easier to pick up a bit of Italian.
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honesty
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Re: Tuscany recommendations?

Post by honesty »

Mum knew Latin before Italian and it helped her to derive word meanings but grammar tense and stuff was not that transferable. We also grew up thinking a sleeche di tosta was the correct way to ask for a slice of toast only for her to tell use she’d italianised the English words and didn’t have a clue...
MarcusT
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Re: Tuscany recommendations?

Post by MarcusT »

Vorpal wrote:
ConRAD wrote:
Vorpal wrote:... lots of people in Italy study Latin in school, so you can find people who know Latin ...

That's absolutely NOT TRUE !!!
I was born and I've been living in this Country for over 65 years right now.
Nowadays, if you're lucky, you can exchange a few words with some priest, maybe !!! That's it !!!
It's a pity, I know, but from a practical point of view Latin today is totally useless ... as far as I know!!
During my secondary school ... well ... yes, I indeed remember that I did study some Caesar, Cicero and Seneca but today I can't absolutely say anything in Latin.
French, except for some border regions with France and Switzerland is undergoing a sort of an obsolescent status probably ending up to an irreversible form of desuetude (Latin desuetudo) ... in favour of English, of course.
German is very common in Trentino-Alto Adige.
... but ... but, BTW, do you know that Italian is definitely a wonderful language ??

Parlo Italiano :) Ho lavorato per una ditta del gruppo di Fiat durante 14 anni. Ma domenticato molto perche imparo il Norvegese.

You can say that it is absolutely not true that some Italians learn Latin in school, but I have met a number of Italians who studied Latin and told me it was quite common. They were mostly in Modena, Bologna, Torino. You will note that I also said that it was easier to find people who speak English.

Most of the people I know who took French in school are in their 40s and 50s (or older). They said they took it because it was easy, rather than another reason.


Sorry Vorpel. It may be a generational thing, but now a days, most kids (last 20 yrs) don't go near Latin unless their parents force them to take it. A second language is mandatory in schools. English, German, French and Spanish are mainly studied and in that order. They already have a big enough work load in their studies, they don't need to add a dead language to increase their burden.
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ConRAD
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Re: Tuscany recommendations?

Post by ConRAD »

Curiously modern English adopted quite a number of Latin abbreviations not at all used in current Italian such as:

A.M. - ante meridiem
ca. - circa
et al. - et alii
etc. - et caetera
e.g. - exempli gratia
i.e. - id est
p.a. - per annum
per cent. - per centum
Ph.D. - Philosophiae Doctor
P.M. - post meridiem
vs. - versus
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Re: Tuscany recommendations?

Post by Vorpal »

MarcusT wrote:Sorry Vorpel. It may be a generational thing, but now a days, most kids (last 20 yrs) don't go near Latin unless their parents force them to take it. A second language is mandatory in schools. English, German, French and Spanish are mainly studied and in that order. They already have a big enough work load in their studies, they don't need to add a dead language to increase their burden.

I wasn't trying to start a big debate or anything. I don't doubt that most younger Italians don't study Latin, anymore. Just like in most other countries where it used to be common.

Cyril Haearn asked if one can use Latin. The main point of my answer was
you can find people who know Latin, but I think you're more likely to find people who speak English

Maybe I should have left off the bit about people studying it in school. Or said that people used to. Or merely that I knew Italians who had studied it. I have to admit that I assumed that what my friends told me about their school experience was still correct, which I probably shouldn't have done, but it really wasn't meant to eb the important part of my psot.
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Re: Tuscany recommendations?

Post by Vorpal »

ConRAD wrote:Curiously modern English adopted quite a number of Latin abbreviations not at all used in current Italian such as:

A.M. - ante meridiem
ca. - circa
et al. - et alii
etc. - et caetera
e.g. - exempli gratia
i.e. - id est
p.a. - per annum
per cent. - per centum
Ph.D. - Philosophiae Doctor
P.M. - post meridiem
vs. - versus

A high proportion of the words, between 50 and 80 percent--depending upon which source you use, and how it is measured--in English are derived either directly or indirectly (through French or Spanish, for the most part) from Latin. English is considered to fall under the family of Germanic languages, but that is mainly because the construction of sentences and the conjugation are derived from the Germanic languages (Old English, Old Norse, etc.).

Unfortunately, use of many has diverged. There are many more 'false friends' between Italian and English than other languages I am familiar with.
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