Cycle Travel Question

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Richard Fairhurst
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Re: Cycle Travel Question

Post by Richard Fairhurst »

I found what was wrong... ruddy LetsEncrypt messing up things as per usual. Sorry for the hassle.
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Bmblbzzz
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Re: Cycle Travel Question

Post by Bmblbzzz »

I see the elevation profile now has colour coded sections (perhaps it's had this for a long time, I didn't previously tend to look at it). Is there a link to what the various colours represent? Red seems to be over 6%?
Richard Fairhurst
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Re: Cycle Travel Question

Post by Richard Fairhurst »

Broadly: orange 3.5%-7%, red 7%-10.5%, maroon 10.5%+. It slightly averages it out so that the graph looks continuous rather than rapidly flitting from red to orange to red to maroon etc., which is why you might sometimes see point readings either side of what the colour would suggest.
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Bmblbzzz
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Re: Cycle Travel Question

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Thanks. Yes, I don't have any maroon on my route despite point readings above 10.5%. Seems a sensible approach as long as the averaging isn't over too long a distance!
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Re: Cycle Travel Question

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Another question, in two parts. The cycle.travel map has various symbols for amenities which do not appear on the standard OSM map: shops, pubs, water taps and similar. Very useful. Where does the data for this come from, as it doesn't appear on the OSM map? That question is more for curiousity than anything else. And then, is it possible to download those symbols with a route? They would be useful to have.
Psamathe
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Re: Cycle Travel Question

Post by Psamathe »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 11 Aug 2021, 7:42pm Another question, in two parts. The cycle.travel map has various symbols for amenities which do not appear on the standard OSM map: shops, pubs, water taps and similar. Very useful. Where does the data for this come from, as it doesn't appear on the OSM map? That question is more for curiousity than anything else. And then, is it possible to download those symbols with a route? They would be useful to have.
It's an interesting useful question (I also would like to know the answer) as some sources are likely to be kept better up-to-date than others.

Ian
Richard Fairhurst
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Re: Cycle Travel Question

Post by Richard Fairhurst »

They're all from OSM, but cycle.travel processes the raw OSM data in a different way to the default map style on openstreetmap.org. The openstreetmap.org default style doesn't show everything that's recorded in OSM, just a particular selection - as an obvious example, it doesn't show NCN routes or similar.

So sometimes cycle.travel will pull out details you don't see on the openstreetmap.org default style. If you go into the "Edit" tab on openstreetmap.org (which shows everything) you'll find them.

The main things that cycle.travel doesn't use OSM for are elevation data; traffic data; and built-up area outlines.

(Downloading them with a route would be in theory possible, but not really easy or efficient - when you download a route then it pulls everything down from the routing server, and that doesn't include things like cafes or pubs which aren't germane to the route calculation. It's the sort of thing I'll probably end up looking at as part of the mobile app.)
cycle.travel - maps, journey-planner, route guides and city guides
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Cycle Travel Question

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Thanks. I have tried to play with OSM in the past but never really got to grips with it, maybe it's time for another look.

Just out of curiousity, I can imagine room for different interpretation in traffic data and urban area definition but would have though elevation data was pretty standard, what's the reason for not using that?
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Sweep
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Re: Cycle Travel Question

Post by Sweep »

Richard Fairhurst wrote: 11 Aug 2021, 10:49pm They're all from OSM, but cycle.travel processes the raw OSM data in a different way to the default map style on openstreetmap.org. The openstreetmap.org default style doesn't show everything that's recorded in OSM, just a particular selection - as an obvious example, it doesn't show NCN routes or similar.

So sometimes cycle.travel will pull out details you don't see on the openstreetmap.org default style. If you go into the "Edit" tab on openstreetmap.org (which shows everything) you'll find them.

The main things that cycle.travel doesn't use OSM for are elevation data; traffic data; and built-up area outlines.
Interesting Richard
maybe a very daft question but can you change the appearance of certain items on your displayed maps?
I find the display of barriers a real problem - I am very impressed that they are so often marked by the OSM squad but they are so hard to see I often only see them on the map after I have ridden the route and had to thread a loaded bike through a bike-trap.
A particular issue since your wonderful prog/site quite often routes down such paths/tracks.

Not a complaint I stress.
Sweep
Psamathe
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Re: Cycle Travel Question

Post by Psamathe »

Richard Fairhurst wrote: 11 Aug 2021, 10:49pm They're all from OSM, but cycle.travel processes the raw OSM data in a different way to the default map style on openstreetmap.org. ....
One aspect for some services that concerns me about OSM is maintenance of amenity POIs. Guesswork but I can see how accuracy and updates of road infrastructure is probably quick. But I wonder if there is similar maintenance of changes to amenity. e.g. last tour I arrived at my intended municipal campsite to find it was permanently closed. I'd been using Archies so later e-mailed Archies with an update about there no longer being a campsite there, maintaining the database. Would OSM contributors be updating amenity POIs as fast ?

e.g. The particular campsite I discovered closed (after a long ride and further on to next site) was removed from Archies and is not in the latest gpx download from Archies (just checked gpx dated 22 Feb 2021) but it is still listed on cycle.travel as "from Archies". Campsite is Fourchambault, France (off EV6 just NW of Nevers). Campsite was locked up and well overgrown (not been used that year at least).

Example is just one campsite but I'm raising it in relationship to the maintenance of amenity POIs.

Ian
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mjr
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Re: Cycle Travel Question

Post by mjr »

Psamathe wrote: 12 Aug 2021, 10:53am But I wonder if there is similar maintenance of changes to amenity. e.g. last tour I arrived at my intended municipal campsite to find it was permanently closed. I'd been using Archies so later e-mailed Archies with an update about there no longer being a campsite there, maintaining the database. Would OSM contributors be updating amenity POIs as fast ?
As fast as what? You say the one you reported is still displayed.

Anyway, I browse the notes on the map local to me as often as I can. I can't easily resolve some of them (subtle changes on fast motor roads, for example), but something like a closed campsite would be pretty simple to verify, ideally by finding a local news story, or at worst by visiting it.

Of course, I don't know the typical "time to resolve" of map notes across all of OSM and it would be difficult to sort out the amenity ones.
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Bmblbzzz
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Re: Cycle Travel Question

Post by Bmblbzzz »

The problem there would seem to be that Archies is updated but c.t has not synced with Archies since that update.
Psamathe
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Re: Cycle Travel Question

Post by Psamathe »

mjr wrote: 12 Aug 2021, 11:30am
Psamathe wrote: 12 Aug 2021, 10:53am But I wonder if there is similar maintenance of changes to amenity. e.g. last tour I arrived at my intended municipal campsite to find it was permanently closed. I'd been using Archies so later e-mailed Archies with an update about there no longer being a campsite there, maintaining the database. Would OSM contributors be updating amenity POIs as fast ?
As fast as what? You say the one you reported is still displayed.

Anyway, I browse the notes on the map local to me as often as I can. I can't easily resolve some of them (subtle changes on fast motor roads, for example), but something like a closed campsite would be pretty simple to verify, ideally by finding a local news story, or at worst by visiting it.

Of course, I don't know the typical "time to resolve" of map notes across all of OSM and it would be difficult to sort out the amenity ones.
I e-mailed Archies soon after returning home from tour. Archies e-mailed back "Thanks ..." quickly and their database no longer includes the site (though I didn't keep checking how quickly they updated, it certainly is not listed in 22 Feb 2021 database). The example/personal experience site is still displayed on cycle.travel but not on Archies (cycle.travel lists it as "from Archies").

1st EU tour I normally phoned tomorrow's intended site to check they had spaces. Subsequent tours I didn't bother, just turned-up based on Archies listing and only had the one issue (which is not a disaster, just a much longer day than intended -> rest day the next day but it was a lovely town for a rest day ... so probably "all for the best" anyway).

Ian
Richard Fairhurst
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Re: Cycle Travel Question

Post by Richard Fairhurst »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 12 Aug 2021, 9:20am Thanks. I have tried to play with OSM in the past but never really got to grips with it, maybe it's time for another look.

Just out of curiousity, I can imagine room for different interpretation in traffic data and urban area definition but would have though elevation data was pretty standard, what's the reason for not using that?
OSM doesn't have elevation data, believe it or not! Every OSM-based map that has contours is getting them from somewhere else - NASA's SRTM (Shuttle Radar Topography Mission) is the usual source. OSM is volunteer-made and volunteers sadly can't afford a space shuttle. ;)
Sweep wrote: 12 Aug 2021, 10:25am maybe a very daft question but can you change the appearance of certain items on your displayed maps?
I find the display of barriers a real problem - I am very impressed that they are so often marked by the OSM squad but they are so hard to see I often only see them on the map after I have ridden the route and had to thread a loaded bike through a bike-trap.
Sure, I can look at that - I generally only change the appearance of the map every few months or so, but it's probably due a look in the next couple of months!
Psamathe wrote: 12 Aug 2021, 10:53am One aspect for some services that concerns me about OSM is maintenance of amenity POIs. Guesswork but I can see how accuracy and updates of road infrastructure is probably quick. But I wonder if there is similar maintenance of changes to amenity.
It kind of depends. Where you've got an engaged local OSM community, yes, the POIs get updated pretty quickly. But if the original POI was added by someone who was just passing through, it's possible there's no OSM contributor around to keep it up-to-date. OSM is a fairly middle-class pursuit, so you'll probably find that central Cambridge and Oxford are in good order, but I wouldn't place any bets about Barnsley...

(On another note, I've just prodded the automatic Archies update process so I'll see if that makes a difference.)
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st599_uk
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Re: Cycle Travel Question

Post by st599_uk »

Is there a simple app that one can use to add notes to the OSM map of where you think there's an error.

Not many people could successfully edit the map, but they could add a note saying this level crossing is closed, or this campsite appears to be shut or there's a water tap here which could be incorporated by someone who knows what they're doing.

I know roads are updated quickly (Amazon uses OSM for delivery routing), but presumably the big boys don't care about water taps or campsites.
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